Saturday, 25 June 2011

Black Templars Feedback Required

Now I know that when planning for a tournament we should pick our lists early, most of us have a strong tournament army ready anyway and can just play that – we are experienced with it and understand its capabilities, limitations etc.

But I get bored easily.

I’m happy with the Dark Eldar list I took to Blog Wars and won with, but there is a reason I’m not going to take them to Brighton Warlords 1750 Tournament on the 16/17th July.

The terrain at Brighton is more often than not sparse on the tabletop. There are always a few bits and there is usually a good mix, but there is not really the 25% that Dark Eldar really need to survive. Without cover in the midfield I can’t generate cover for the rest of the army through the Hellions who, with stealth, are happy to take shots..

On a separate point, the soft scores for basing models state that all flying bases must have texture and colour, I have an issue with this as I like my flying bases to blend into whatever board they are on, which I feel is the main reason for them being clear…BUT I don’t want to lose 7 points (10 for a draw…so you can see its worth it..) for being awkward and not basing them!

So I have choices:

Space Wolves (pretty much my go-to tournament army and am extremely comfortable with) - this is either the net-traditional hybrid or Loganwing
Imperial Guard – Heavily mechanised, some platoon support, alpha striking, chimeras, melta, manticores,
hydras etc etc..
Blood Angels – mech (pred heavy), ImmoBAlizer (immolator-spam style), DoA or Sanguinary Guard
Vanilla Marines – Melta heavy ‘Best Of’ with TH/SS bubblewrap thrown in
Deathwing…my second army ever… revamped for 5th thanks to FAQ. Strong temptation as it just needs some resin shields..
Black Templars – Terminator heavy, shooting oriented.

Of all these lists it is the Black Templars that I have the least experience with. I got a stuffing from them at the last Warlords tournament, my target priority was all wrong and I fluffed a couple of bits, but my opponent thoroughly smashed me. Since then I’ve been looking at lists very similar to that, the internet archetype of LRC, FC Ass Marines, EC-AAC, las/plas Initiate squads, Typhoons, dual CML Tank Hunting Termies etc etc.

However, I am growing more and more convinced that, with the exception of Venom-spam DE/mass poison, there are few armies that can torrent away multiple terminator units.. especially with BT LD tricks through Marshall.

So I have gone with this list in a few test games and I am really liking it. It requires a bit more thought than I expected when designing it, but is also very capable…I will admit that this is a tweaked version – originally I had a Chaplain in for his Litanies of Hate when I did get into combat, but I think the Marshall offers more from his LD use all game long.

Marshall – TDA, Storm Shield, Power Weapon (+Adamantine Mantle if I can fit it)
Emperor’s Champion – Abhor the Witch
Marshall’s Termie Command Squad x4, 2 Assault Cannons, 4 Tank Hunters
Sword Brethren Termies x 5 – 2 CML, 5x Tank Hunters
Sword Brethren Termies x 5 – 2 CML, 5x Tank Hunters
Sword Brethren Termies x 5 – 2 CML, 5x Tank Hunters
Initiate Squad x 5, Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Neophyte
Initiate Squad x 5, Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Neophyte
Initiate Squad x 5, Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Neophyte
Typhoon Land Speeder
Typhoon Land Speeder

This is slightly under 1750 as I was trying to get the points for the adamantine mantle, but don’t think I can.. so a couple more Neophytes probably..
24 TEQ wounds
15 MEQ, 6 bullet catchers (remember the fairly maximal range they will be operating at)
12 S9 Missiles (3 Targets)
3 S9 (3 targets)
4 S8 (2 targets)
8 S7, Rending (one target)
28 S5 (4 targets, but part of the Brethren, so usually just an extra for glancing, but when combined with the frag missiles can create fantastic horde control)

The Marshall and EC provide a little bit of combat bite to the Command Squad but otherwise its all about shooting the crap out of the other guy…

Marshall means all BT units can use his leadership…HIS leadership…so PBS from IG need to target the Marshall with Weaken Resolve…not any of the other units as they will just use his LD10 which is not the weakened statistic.. good little trick for that one.. same with Fear of the Darkness from BA.

EC gets Abhor as its 30 points cheaper than AAC and I’m not trying to assault.. I’m looking for 5++ to nullify power on all units and a free consolidation move before the game begins to get the shorter ranged firepower into position or to reposition other bits without it influencing their ability to fire in my turn…

On a final note, by running BT’s I stand a great chance of picking up a further 6 points for WYSIWYG…the Warlords have a wizzywig nazi judge (Pete) who loves his grenades…ALL marines carry ‘nades right…not templars though and I’ll be damned if I’m paying for shit I don’t want…this means I could very well get the maximum soft scores…most people get 34/40, the vast majority don’t get WYSIWYG as they don’t model 2 sets of grenades on EVERY model. Grey Knights with frag, krak and psyk-outs…good luck!

Now 6 points doesn’t sound like a lot, but this Warlords have 55-odd people going and the extra 6 points could really make a difference to final placing!!

So thoughts and comments please this a crap idea, will it just die…should I just give up warhammer and take up farming? Or is it pretty nasty but could just do with a little tweak….BT specialists throw your hat in the ring too hey..


  1. I kinda like that list - wondering what I'd do against it lol (have an idea ...)

    Against most armies - 16 walking lascannon shots (basically) topped off by 3 proper lascannon shots and another 6 missile shots a turn. Mech WONT survive - and once on foot ... Thats also plenty of frag templates (at S5 as well, which is nice)

    That and Loganwing are two lists I was looking at myself to just get some other army practice since it uses a lot of existing (albeit unpainted) models I have. I'd love to see the 1750 Loganwing and actually the Sang Guard lists your thinking of?

  2. I know its only 6 points but any judge who takes marks off for lack of grenades needs his head testing. Does he also mark down grey hunters who only have one weapon?

  3. Yup.

    Last BWL I lost all my WYIWYG points because my bikers were only modelled with 1 set of grenades - which are "packs of two" - which is beyond GW standard. Annoying and cost me like 3 or 4 places.

    This time won't be the case!

  4. Petes a good guy and a great gamer, but he does the WYSIWYG for 2 reasons. One to stop people bringing 3 colours based armies just to smash their opponents with, painting the army last minute with no detail etc. Secondly to promote the hobby. There are players who go to the Brighton club who are mainly in it for the Hobby and it caters for those who put that extra bit of effort into their army. Its anal in terms of competitiveness but his trying to promote the hobby side of things, which imo his failing at. Secretly I tghink he just loves dicking people over with points xD

    As for the army, don't like it. No mobility, slow moving, easily knocked off objectives via tank shock, no large threat like TH/SS in combat, so combat armies will role it. Anti tank is nice, but where did you get str 5 frags from? They are str 4 against troops.

    Just my 2 cents. Its got great anti tank but without accept any challenge, combats lacking a bit, would love to see you face off against daemons with this :D

  5. oh yeah forgot about that its tank hunter lol.

    Doubt tanks are there to tank shock though lol. Lack of troops (and not great ones at that) are an issue. Shame the BT troops section is a bit of a flop :/

    HIS WYSIWYG sucks. I had grenades and pistols on everything, but because I didn't have 2 sets of grenandes ruining the aesthetics of my model even further, I lost those points. I had grenades on them ... simple as that lol. Not this time, I'll add the 1 bit of plastic to each model on top of the 2 bits of crap I already added to further make the biker legs look like trash haha.

  6. Venerable Brother25 June 2011 at 11:09

    @Killswitch and Simo...RE: WYSIWYG.I'm fine with it and normally just say 'screw it'..but with so many people its real important to get all the extras imho.
    @Killswitch...the S5 Frag thing is Bully not me mate...combat armies..agreed. disagree on tank have they gotten past all the missiles and powerfists? Have they ensured they are not in the path of the lascannons?
    RE Demons...yeah agreed...but think about the context bro...1 demon army going? likelihood? slim... whereas there are plenty of grey knights, wolves, marines, blood angels, IG...plenty of metal boxes to kill...
    Agree on mobility though...
    Could squeeze up to AAC for EC but don't really want to..
    thanks for feedback bro... ;)

  7. I quite like the list actually. Foot templars are nasty. As for wysiwyg, I don't give a crap. If he thinks my feral guardsmen and various other conversions constitute lack of effort then he is clearly insane.

  8. I thought that Andy - every single model in my army is converted lol - still didn't get it. But I will this time, damn it. Just found some extra nades :/

  9. Punch him in the face for it then lol

    Well yeh theres always the lascannons but even my Guard army doesnt de mech every vehicle over 5 turns :( just happens man. I like the de mech elements, but clearing objectives will be reliant on the termies punching face, which is why I think ull miss the AAAC. Well Daemons was an example, others are mephiston, Blood angel termies, paladinsz etc. just my 2 cents bro, still a gd list.

  10. 2nd time this week I've got rules mixed up lol.

    Ven, what is the sort of Loganwing or Deathwing list you'd be running, as those are the ones I think they'd match up against in terms of style/models?

    I got a game in with the jump chaplin, since you mention him- and while it did "help" one combat (removed him from command squad, where he soaked a wound for the team, to another squad which boshed some zerkers) - it really wasn't worth it for the cost. I think if your finding the points for a chaplin, I'd just get AAC on the champ.

    (Next on the list is the Belial/Ezekial 6 terminator squads - I think I'll have to find a way to get 3 or 4 chain fists into that list though, zero LRaider stopping power otherwise)

  11. Venerable Brother25 June 2011 at 14:59

    @Killswitch..if I go AAC I'll need to lose a few bits, adamantine mantle on marshall and a neophyte probably, so not much...i'll try it out..

    @Bully, I'm out and about at minute..tomorrow I'll be around and throw out some more ideas..if i'm not too hungover...

  12. LOL is that Joke?? Marking people down for not having the correct type of Grenades on each figure?

    Hmmm I was contemplating making the long journey down to Brighton for one of the events but now I think I'll save the petrol money. I'm all for rewarding people with painted armies but that takes the piss.

    @Ven, don't listen to that little WaaC'in wimp I reckon you've got the makings of a good list there. I'd like to see those 20 Terminators plus friends shifted off an objective that easily. I think the Templar's definitely do footslogging Terminators much better than Logan wing nowadays.

  13. @ Brad its 6 points which isnt much. Most people wont get it so overall it rarely effects the overall placing. Ive won a few of their events without having Wysiwyg :P

  14. Hmmm... shame you've not really had any of the feedback you were requesting.

    The list is 1793 (inc. the Adamantine mantle), so a good distance from the 1750 you need. I say that because the Mantle makes or breaks this kind of list, so is a must... trust me, I know. ;)

    Just in case you didn't know... The marshal has to buy the skill of the command squad, so that's another 3 points added. I assume you know, but unlike other SM codices, the Marshal MUST stay attached to the command squad but doesn't have to have terminator armour if you just want him to take the AP1-2 hits. I'm not saying termie armour is bad by the way.

    Taking the asscan squad is a bit odd. They need to be at <24" when the rest of the list wants to be at the limit of their range for as long as possible.

    The worst part of this list... speeders. I don't really get why people put them into these sort of lists. Where will any S4+, AP3+ weaponry go? If they don't go down turn 1, then your opponent is doing something wrong. You're making target priority for your opponent easy and losing 4 missiles without causing your opponent any problems. Predators on the other hand work well with these list because AV13 requires a decent gun to drop it. Those guns... will be AP1/2, so their presence protects the terminators. Also good for objective protection and tank-shocking should your opponent not wish to invest their high str weapons into them.

    21 marines that will be within 12" of your board edge and that do not have any significant protection is a very risky strategy. Even if they are Ld 10. I can see them GtG a lot.

    With regards to the scoring... I've discussed this with Killswitch. Performance at a tournament should be a personal achievement in the sense that if you want to win on battle points, just look at the result of the battle points at the end of the tournament. The way you spent your prize money from Blog Wars shows that YOUR hobby is more important than the prize. BW was my first tournament (within my first 10 games). I came about mid table on battle points, but about 27 out of 30 because my list was newly bought so I could play in the tourney. I was happy with the mid table as that was all I cared about.

    If you want more thoughts on a foot list, just ask. I have a lot of cheeky tricks up my sleeve.

  15. Good point on the speeders - this is why I really don't like every man and his dog putting them in deathwing lists. First game I used them, the dude had a really bad list, but had like 2 AT guns, blew them out of the sky straight off the table. Its so true, those "spare" heavy bolters (on that lone HB razor back or something else random) just ends up hitting 3 times and getting a pen or glance, and thats it done (whats worse is that DW speeders can't even deepstrike!)

    I'd love to see more on the footlist stuff though BroLo, article on 3++ maybe?

    I'd offer more advice on this style of list if I knew really how I'd go about using it, I'd have an idea, but the troops would be what has me stumped - they are static - so kind of have to be in position, plus as much as I'd like to think I know the way BT's work, I don't lol. I need to give that codex a damn good read in full again.

  16. @brad, like alex says it doesn't have a big impact, but I just don't think I can afford to not get those points.

    @BroLo...I liked the speeders cause they are so cheap but I think you may be right, they are fragile. Can change the asscannons over to missiles then too, maintains the long range shooting and improves survivability. Add bodies to the troops?
    Thoughts on troops? I know I need more units and/or bodies, but not sure how to get them?

  17. Quick question then... how much do you want 4 terminator units and how keen are you for it to be an all foot list?

  18. Looking for a difference in play with marines from mech, so pretty keen on all foot... I love termies too, but I can live with 3

  19. My only concern is foot templars are problematic. The marshal needs a good 100 points investing in him to make him work and coupled with the EC that's almost 300 points gone, without a great deal for it.

    If you go with a hybrid foot list, things can work out a lot better.

    The AV11 rhino hulls provide saturation for lower strength weapons to keep speeders alive. Predators to take some fire away from the terminators and you can get away with fewer troops.

    EC - Abhor - 110

    Termies - 2 x CML (tank hunters) - 265
    Termies - 2 x CML (tank hunters) - 265
    Termies - 2 x CML (tank hunters) - 265

    Crusader Squad - MM/melta - rhino, smoke - 153
    Crusader Squad - MM/melta - rhino, smoke - 153
    Crusader Squad - Las/plas, 4 neophytes - 141

    Speeder - TML/HB - 70
    Speeder - TML/HB - 70

    Predator - Auto/Las, smoke, searchlight - 129
    Predator - Auto/Las, smoke, searchlight - 129


    ... but we arrive at something a little different to what you started with.

    From your original list, you've exchanged the terminators for 2 predators and the marshal for some more survivable troops. The list is probably better done with Stelek's 2+2+2+2... system. The speeders immediately have more impact and the predators will make target priority more difficult.

    If you want something different why not explore this list with PotMS... that's where BT DO come into their own. losing another unit of terminators bags you PotMS for the preds and PotMS razorbacks, but that's a whole different list.

  20. Appreciate the effort Bro, like the list, still maintains the heavy terminator element. .I'll give it a few games, see what's what with it.

    Potms lists for templars- expensive mech ba?

  21. sort of... but harder to supress.

  22. I'll investigate. Really appreciate the tips bud. Potms bit ba, bit gk... hmmm I could go for that

  23. Theres some pretty funky lists you can rock with the POTMS and BT's - hell even vindies become somewhat cool with it!

  24. Just keep your terminators out of the way Bully. ;)

  25. haha damn right!

    Actually speaking of that - the dude that played Andy first round of BWL is back with basically the same list - which has a vindy + Deathwing terms (4 squads) I wonder if he's ever landed on his own dudes.

  26. I've seen that list on what can I say? Terrible!

    If he doesn't hit his own guy from time to time then he's either not firing his vindi or not in the mix with his CC terminators. So either way, some part of the list isn't being used properly.