I thought this was quite a good exercise, as I could think of the sort of list I want to run as well (I have so many marine sprues locked away I might as well do something with them ...)
So I wrote up a couple of variations. I started with a "typical" Descent of Angels list. Now there is some what of a debate over the value of this I think - and we don't need to look much further than two of the main competitive blogs in 3++ and YTTH to see this split - a quick glance at 3++'s lists and "recent" battle reports see's quite a bit of DoA Blood Angel use, where as YTTH goes completely the other way, and all starting on the board.
Now personally I get both sides of the coin, hell I can even apply a little bit of this with Deathwing. The whole idea of a "tool in the tool box, but doesn't mean it needs to be used each and every time". So with that in mind I wrote two different lists for him to see and he could make his mind up.
"Descent of Angels List"
Librarian - Jump Pack - Blood Lance / Shield of Sang 125
Honor Guard - Jump Packs - Melta guns x4 Lightning Claw x1 (LC) 220
2xSanginary Priests - JumpPacks - 150
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist (PF) - 235
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist (PF) - 235
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Weapon - 225
5xVanguard Vet - 1xPF, 1xLC/StormShield (SS) 1xGlaive/SS 1xPistol/SS 1xPistol/Close Combat Weapon - 280
5xVanguard Vet - 1xPF, 1xLC/StormShield (SS) 1xGlaive/SS 1xPistol/SS 1xPistol/Close Combat Weapon - 280
48 Marines.
Now thats fairly standard I guess. Couple of Vanguard vets tooled up quite well - I originally had only two SS's in the unit but had points left over so felt it might give them the punch to help deal with the likes of TH/SS terminators and the likes. Honor Guard got a LC again because of points - but also gives them a bit of "duality" - I didn't think the list overly needs another FNP/FC bubble 2+HG should be enough, but dropping the 2xShields 1xLC and 1xMG gets you another JP Priest. Gear swapping around accordingly is fine - throw LC's or PW or even Combi's on the priests.
Librarian has Blood Lance for anti-parking lot - and other than that you can combat squad for multiple objectives.
I actually was contemplating dropping the SSx2 LC and MGx1 for a scout squad for objective sitting in the back field, but I'd probably have find some more points to get some extra's on them.
"All on Foot Jumpers"
I also gave him a second alternative, which I have to say is the route I was planning on going down, not that it would be hard to make either option.
Librarian - Jump Pack - Shield of Sang / Sword of Sang 125
2x Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Packs + LC's- 180
1xSang Priest + LC- 65
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist Hand Flamer(PF) - 245
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist Hand Flamer(PF) - 245
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist Hand Flamer(PF) - 245
10xAssault Squad - MGx2 Power Fist Hand Flamer(PF) - 245
5xDevs - 4xML - 130
5xDevs - 4xML - 130
5xDevs - 4xML - 130
I do have to say I quite like this approach, it relies less on getting the right squads in to hit hard / melta off the drop, and gives more turns (well 1) to help de-mech with the 12xML shots. We have the foot priest with the devs, I had 15 points left over and thought a LC there actually wasn't terrible as it does give a tiny bit of fear to people charging in at last minute, again better use of points could be done.
Powers wise I went with Sword and Shield - Blood Lance won't see much use, so your looking more at combat powers. Unleash Rage could be a good shout as well.
The one weakness of this list is that there is no hammer/shield unit - it's relying on cover/FNP.
Anyway, thoughts? Improvements? Does anyone have experience with either of these lists, or something similar or even drastically different? I'd love to hear something about it as I have to say the Jumper list really intrigues me.
I am planning on making this up myself post Brighton if I get a chance.
Good article, I have played both quite a bit and personally prefer the 2nd list with dev squads as in all the games I tried them they performed way better than the vanguard squads for half the cost plus they can pop vehicles ready for your troops to mop up as well as instakill T4 multi wound things (plus small blast swarm to death quite nicely).
ReplyDeleteI'ts only drawback I found was if you wanted to use DOA (which is still possible of course, remember DOA also lets you re-roll failed come on from reserve rolls) and meant leaving the devs alone on the board for a while but this can tie in with the worse case scenario for dev's, the hated dawn of war since it reduces the ammount of time the are on their own getting shot at.
As for powers I think shield and rage is king, you really should have a power fist for bit hurt laying down and sword only affects the libby, where as rage makes the entire squad quite a bit more deadly (really roll it out a few times) I wouldnt leave home without it.
I think your first list is close to a best available DoA list, but I think most people are coming round to agreeing that on-the-board jumpers are a better option. I like the second list despite there being a bit of lack of flavour.
ReplyDeleteStelek seems to agree with you however...
http://yesthetruthhurts.com/page/2/?cat=32
with an extra 1000 points he achieves an extra 10 bodies, but loses powerfists and hand flamers.
You say about relying upon cover, but remember your libby is rocking shield and only the front unit really needs it. If you're worried about cover, then honour guard units with jump packs and storm shields aren't hugely dissimilar in terms of points to a 10 man assault squad.
Oh defo brolo - shield is a real nice booster for the army.
ReplyDeleteThat was another suggestion I had lined up - drop to 3xsquads and throw in that SS + LC for a shield unit - also another FNP bubble.
Spot on about the flavour - 4 different unit types, total, including IC's lol.
good lists. i played a jumper list for many years in 'the bad old days' of the PDF codex, and even before that i came as close as i could to doing so.
ReplyDeletei never favoured deep striking with any army that relies on combat to win games, so i am pleased to see that people are starting to find ways to use the BA codex to produced foot jumper lists.
in all honesty, i think your second list is spot on. i really like it. in the past i have proved that armies like that are extremely vulnerable to psychic LD modifiers and such like, but the addition of the libby goes a long way towards rectifying that.
cant wait to face it!
I think the libby is a big roll in this list. I like Dal's suggestion of Unleash Rage - it does make one of those squads a bit more potent (he can always shift to a "more intact" unit on the charge if needs be if his ferry unit gets shot up).
ReplyDeleteThe foot one appeals to me a good bit more than the DoA one - I really don't like the idea of giving yourself 1 less turn "to get shit done" lol.
The list does have some "extra's" which could be dropped and get some other stuff in, thinking even a scout unit might be worth a shout in the back field with the devs / priest - freeing up, what 85 odd points for a scoring unit with 3+ cover 4+ fnp isn't all that terrible!
I don't see the point of unleash rage. marines even with preferred enemy aren't great in assault. With FC, they're a bit better, but not exactly elite troops. I therefore think lance/sword are probably a bit better.
ReplyDeleteLance could be good - gives that added punch just as your going in if your desperate to hit a squad inside a tank.
ReplyDeleteSword I think probably is the safest choice as it has lots of different uses (anti-MC, anti-tank, doubling out characters etc...)
I'd love for fear to be good in this list, but I don't think it quite works on its tod.
I still think rage beats sword every time overall, sword is nice and essentially an extra power fist in your squad at I level, it really just depends what they are up against, do you really need another power fist if you already have one on your sarg though?
ReplyDeleteAgainst something nasty, sure, but against swarm i think rage would be better (remember as well the re-rolls also helps the actual power fist hit as well as the libby's own attacks and the rest of the squad).
I like rage because its a force multiplier like a priest and not just a buff for a single model. Its also a safety net against bad rolls, oh dear your librarian or power fist just rolled 1's to hit, nevermind roll em again.
Fear is funky and so funny when you pull it off, unfortunately that doesnt happen too often. Marine's I believe can be pretty good in combat with FC/FNP and rage, you do some fantastic damage, you certainly do need the priest though to compliment rage and make it work.
If you are sticking with sword I would do it for squads with no priest around where you arent getting the strength charge bonus and maybe if you are wanting to cheap out on taking no power fist on your sarg.
#1 rule i learned when i started playing 40k, re-rolls are king, least they are in my opinion :)