Friday, 21 June 2013

Chaos Demons in 40K - One Box Fits All?

Hope mine can look half as good... lol
Hey all.
I'm taking a break from reading all the True Names and balancing it with some light Grimoire reading.
It may be heretical, but I think it's the job of any true Inquisitor to "Know Thy Enemy".

Cutting through the fluffy opening shit - it is important to know ALL the armies that are likely to be arrayed before you on the tabletop.

A good degree of that knowledge can only be acquired through stepping down off the path and wading through the mire.

This week I'm building my 'Demonic mire' - I want to learn more about Demons in order to further my play as a Tyranid player.

I've played locally quite a bit vs demons, especially Allied with CSM forces. I've played a fair few tournament games in 6th against them, but half were against the old codex. So I need to know more... I've played against an ETC build and won, played against FMC Spam Demons and won - albeit very narrowly.

But I need to know how to truly beat them. And part of that process is, as I have said, playing them myself.

Swift sidestep to a second topic that links in very strongly with this - the local gaming club I run is currently on a Monday night (all through summer with our true 'home' is refurbished) and I'm coming straight from school - now, I'm a secret geek as I am sure I've said before - hence why I use "Venerable Brother" and not my real name more often than not..

Anyway...I'm a smuggler...

I smuggle (what a great word -say it aloud... I just don't get to use it often enough) my plastic crack in through the school gates and hide it in my office and smuggle it out again.

I do this, not by inserting Hive Tyrants wrapped in lubed up condoms up my arse, but by only bringing a small - One Box Army - to the club on a Monday.

For quite a few weeks now I've been using Draigowing with some fun toys like Vindicare Assassins and Grenadier Techmarines. It's been a blast - but I am getting bored of it... long time readers know I get bored of armies very quickly.

Seguing back into Chaos Demons - the FMC Spam list fits in one small box, has a tonne of options when you mix up the Greater Demons - thereby unlocking quite different Demon Prince builds.
Plenty of Psychic Powers - which is my favourite "phase" in 40k right now (after shooting of course lol!), plenty of "Random" through the Rewards system...

and perhaps most of all....

It's random. It can be destroyed. It can be beaten. Not just through being outplayed - which doesn't happen often at the club, but you can be screwed by your dice - Grounding Checks, the wrong Psychic Powers, the wrong Greater Rewards, amour or cover saves, Deny the Witch, Perils..

There is plenty that can go wrong - and I dig that. I dig that because it means that there are more opportunities for my opponents to exploit.

So this week I've built my 3 Demon Princes - using Warhammer Fantasy Varghiests cause as this is only a 'local club level' project, I'm not throwing a load of cash at a casual project.

I picked up some Pink Horrors and Plague Bearers - I've built the Plagues.. Horrors this weekend.

Then its the rest.. I'm thinking Fateweaver cause he's great fun.

Then .. that's where the swappable options come in.

10 Plague Bearers
10 Horrors
3 Tzeentch Demon Princes - 2 Greater Rewards, Wings, Armour, Level 3

This leaves a fair few points

Now for the easy option - I grab a Greater Demon and change up the Heavy Princes - for example.. I could grab a GUO and change to Princes up "On Wings of Night"...I could grab a Keeper of Secrets and go for "Let's get Lashed"..

So tomorrow I'm off to my local Games Workshop to pick up Fateweaver and ... well.. don't know!

GUO - I think Shrouded is excellent, but Tau and Eldar Serpents spam can get through it easily.
Tzeentch - Don't need another to unlock Tz Princes
Thrister - Nope. well... Maybe... just cause he is such a freaking BOSS!
Keeper - Unlocks one of the best, if not the best Prince.. but he/she/it is not that great - vulnerable on the ground and an easier target for many armies..

Tough shout. I'm thinking a GUO would be a pain in the ass..

I could always use Khorne Dogs ... I already have some I could use.. like 15-20 of them.

Might be able to squeeze in a Herald of Khorne too..

Anyone have any insights or ideas into what I should add - remembering that this is a "One Box Army" - a small box and that the project is just for local play not for hardcore tournaments but a lot of the guys are at a tournament level and myself.. well... I can't let up... its like Stelek's old mission.. the Truth Hurts - get better!


  1. can you please clarify what you mean by One Box Army, I am intrigued by the concept but cannot find clear definition...

    1. Sorry AlShrive - thought I said.. Because I don't want to carry it around or lug it to work and have my students figure out that actually I'm NOT cool lol.. I take an army to the gaming club on a Monday that literally fits in one small box and can therefore be secreted in my shoulder bag for work..

      Saves trying to explain away TWO carry cases for my Nids!

      Examples so far - I've used Draigowing cause it fits so nicely in one very small box.

      The Demons will be my next "OBA" because it is, potentially, just 5 larger models and 20 little dudes, plus as I am using Vargheists for Princes (with a little added size through basing materials) - the army will fit in the same, small box making it my "OBA2" lol.. hope that makes sense...

      It's an army that fits in a small cardboard box!

  2. KoS.. Invisi-Bomb and trip-lash ftw!

    1. Like I say up top - I think the lash Princes are so solid right now.. they are second choice after Tz or is Tz second after them? lol...

      I think I like the Keeper - a little slow perhaps, but run+3" and fleet should make it a little quicker.. certainly won't keep pace with FMCs though.. But will stay close enough for the Grimoire and Psychic powers etc..

  3. So whos painting it :P

    to be fair any greater deamon has its merits - but id only bother with slan or tz princes. the nurgles ones slow and pursposefull really lets em down as a combat unit and with tau as you say the defensive buff are not great

    1. I'd neglected Slow and Purposeful from my thought process, but combine that with the strong showing for Eldar and Tau who can totally ignore cover with some weaponry then the df buff is not so good.

      I think I'll try KoS and Slan Princes tonight and see what I like

  4. in my experience - go slannesh. Yes its all random but slannesh has a few things going for it:

    Speed - the move buff is quiet good
    Doesnt over rely on psy powers - the lash is a shooting attack. Worst comes to worst even if your psy powers are shut down - one of your gifts will always pump out some dakka,
    Gifts - because your always taking a "o" gift you roll twice then pick the best one to keep - so there is an element of reliability in the slan princes. You'll rarely end up with a duff one. If you roll a 5 and 6 thats pretty much the worst roll you can get..not bad odds.
    Kos - under rated - use that. just cos its not flying doesnt make it bad. Dont make it your warlord and use it as a bullet magnet if nothing else. It also gets more telapathy in the list.
    A point in the slan powers is useful as the number one power can allow you to charge tau gun lines much easier.

    Tz princes - pretty much its all combat or psy - you have no option 3 in case its going bad. Nurgle as discussed isnt that useful and khorne is bad.. blood thirster is a great warlord though.

    1. Thanks man.. One of the biggest issues I'm having is finding a decent Keeper of Secrets model! Bloodthirster is easy - BALROG! love it. Fateweaver easy.. Nurgle - easy. KoS.. ? Keep it simple..soon as my Princes are just Varghiests.. use that scale and just have a wingless Demon Prince model?

    2. deamon prince with nid crushing claws and some beast head? old school ?

    3. Yeah good idea.. just need to locate some sort of beast head.. Beastman range?

    4. find some one thats built a manticore. spare head in that i think

  5. i've played with my ba against a list with screamers and a fateweaver. they tabled me in 2 turns :/// but that's maybe it's just because everyone is kicking ba's asses atm.

    1. Hey HG. Never a good or fun experience going down like that :( but u are right man...BA have it really tough at the minute. Mine really have been on the shelf for a long time...can't make them work in the current environment...not really competitively anyway...good enough for local fun though.. You can run them with say IG allies to shore up weaknesses, but then you may as well be running Vanilla :(

  6. Nice post. Ive been doing the same with the 1 box army and am running daemons atm. Im running fateweaver, great unclean one and 3 nurgle princes. Im thinking a keeper and slaanesh princes would hit harder but im still loving shrouding on the princes.

    1. Hey Rich..these guys really capture my imagination. Just so FUN on the tabletop...all the random works in your favour to give a richer experience I am finding.

      I think the GUO is a beast and an amazing Warlord and Grimoire bearer ... How are you finding his speed? I guess he can eat midfield by t3 and then he is in position for area denial and psychic support...or you have you ever deep struck his fat ass!?

      I do love shrouding ...just loses out to eldar/tau- both of which are well represented both locally and certainly Tau at tournaments...

      I actually have been trying Tzeentch. The reroll 1's for saves is actually very I can run a blood Thirster or a second HQ FMC like a Lord of Change then too...I feel the Slaanesh and Nurgle Greater Demons are almost a tax...

  7. The GUO Is a real pain to kill, and can hold midfield on his own against some armies. Ive only tried nurgle daemons so far and not played tau with them yet so will have to see. I do like tzeentch for the reroll 1's.

    At the moment the biggest problem is fnding an effective way to manage all the powers to make it easier for me and my opponent. Do you have any ideas on this?

    Im also looking at 3 daemon princes of tzeentch, fateweaver and some dogs to put even more presure on, and off of my troops.

    1. I'm clearly going to have to try the GUO and Nurgle Princes.

      Dogs are solid. What maybe 20 dogs? Bombing forward with scout and fast movement.. Could work... More models to paint though lol!

      Re management. I've only played a couple of games with them.. But I couldn't agree more.. Have to find a way. With Nids I had a detailed section under the army list with each psyker, a section for each power to be written in and a turn counter to detail what powers they have on them.

      An adaptation of that would be a card per Prince for example with sections for rewards and psychic powers. Laminate and mark up per game.

      I may try and mock one up tomorrow

      Counters are the other way I guess..


    2. Yea am thinking cards and counters maybe. Would be like playing warmachine i guess. The army without an effective way to manage it is a nightmare and slow.

    3. But at least the movement and shooting phase is fast! As is assault really.. only a few models!

      It's much faster than horde/hybrid Nids - trust me! And they have the psychic powers too!

      But the first 10 minutes of the game just rolling powers and recording them is ball ache.. working on one this afternoon, a tracking system that is..

  8. "Cutting through the fluffy opening shit - it is important to know ALL the armies that are likely to be arrayed before you on the tabletop."

    Has a truer word(s) been spoken?

    Any (competitive minded) game has this element to it - and its essential to success. If you take LOL pro's, do you think when player X is in lane against player Y he doesn't know the exact abilities, CD's and damage capabilities of player Y at each stage of the game (ok exact might be taking it far). Magic the Gathering pro's constantly talk about how you must know, to achieve high levels, whats in the other opponents deck, even off very little information.

    in 40K, you really need to know the threats of opponents armies. One way is to obviously play against it, but knowing likely plays, strong / weak plays.

    Something people often don't talk about is that when you play an army yourself you notice when you, for a lack of a better term, fuck up and put yourself in danger. If you are only ever on the other side of that, you might actually miss it. However experiencing that, then going back to the other side of the table ... priceless.

    For example, right now I am playing a 2nd healer class in WoW for the first time in years, which is typically a counter to my own primary class. However, getting inside its head and seeing the ebb and flow of the class, and precise timings to when its vulnerable, its allowed me to "counter the counter" so to speak.

    Like you say, reading the books is priceless, knowing capabilities is essential, however, sometimes you can't "materialise that" without physically playing it.

    In a game like MTG people often just proxy out and "goldfish" against themselves, if they lack practice partners (or the MTG online client ..). In 40K when game time is so sparse (2hr+ a game, rather than 5-10 minutes) people might be less willing to let you practice, so finding alternatives, proxying out scenarios on your own kitchen table, etc.

    Obviously if you are not competitively minded, this is probably irrelevant to you, however, even casual players sometimes care about improving and quality of play, but just maybe with a fluff list or gorgeous looking army.

  9. I think the lash Princes are so solid right now

    Would you be so kind as to explain this, am just getting back into 40k, after a good few yrs, so have no idea what this is,