Which was fail.
So time to focus on firepower as a way of bringing the Imperium of man together properly.
And what better way than through Autocannons and Lascannons? (that’s a rhetorical question, there are of course, hundreds of better ways!)
HQ:
LL, MH Rune Priest with Chooser takes the mandatory HQ slot. 110
Autocannon? Check! Ish…
Troops?
Space Wolf troops don’t do long distance firepower unless its in Loganwing, which as I have discovered is not competitive at 1500…not really. Locally it is, but nationally…I doubt it. But I need some so… 5 GH in a Razorback with LasPlas? Ok. Still 150 points.
Lascannon? Check!
Guard?
I think a platoon.
PCS – Autocannon 40
3 Inf Squads – Autocannon 60 x 3 – 180
3 Heavy Weapons Squads – Autocannons (3) 75 x 3 – 225
Elites?
How about some Rifleman Dreads? 125 in the SW ‘dex so we’ll take 2…..250 points
Fast?
We need 2 here and 2 in heavy to balance a legal army…And they are going to have to come from the IG codex…hmmm…not going to work.
2x Scout Sentinels w Autocannon – 40, 80 for the 2.
Heavy
3 x Hydras if we can….at 75 each, 225.
That right there is the IG all spent out at 750 points.
Its contribution?
A total of 12 TL S7 shots and 30 S7 shots, 5 vehicles, 7 scoring units, 41 bodies/wounds.
Pretty good for 750..
Back to Wolves then.
A third Rifleman fills another 125 points… gives another 12 TL S7 shots.
This leaves 115 points overall that can be spent ummm…how? Well, we can could sack off the razorback down to a rhino, save 35 points, giving 150.
We buy another Rune Priest with the same set up (except of course, the second power to Jaws or Tempests Wrath) leaving 35 now… Grab 2 more GH (up to 7 now) and Meltabombs for a Priest for bang on 750.
Used every point.
The list?
Rune Priest – Chooser, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Rune Priest – Chooser, Living Lightning, Tempests Wrath, Meltabombs
Grey Hunters x 7, Meltagun, rhino (both Priests go here to shoot out the top)
IG Infantry Platoon
PCS – Autocannon
3 x 10 man Inf Squads – Autocannon
3 x 3 Heavy Weapons Team – Autocannons
Rifleman Dread – 2 x TLAutocannon
Rifleman Dread – 2 x TLAutocannon
Rifleman Dread – 2 x TLAutocannon
Scout Sentinel – Autocannon
Scout Sentinel – Autocannon
Hydra Flak Tank – 2 x TLAutocannon
Hydra Flak Tank – 2 x TLAutocannon
Hydra Flak Tank – 2 x TLAutocannon
8 scoring units, 9 vehicles (6 of which are av12)
Total S7 shenanigans? 56-66 S7 shots per turn.
How?
24 Twin Linked S7 shots per turn
30 S7 shots per turn
2-12 S7 Ap5 shots per turn.
We have 16 potential targets per turn. Attack Vectors some call them. I don’t care.
With 6 of those sporting twin linking weapons systems, everything under Av13 cannot compete.
Hordes cannot compete as they will be gone in a turn or two.
Monstrous Creatures will be rolling for Armour like they never have…
BUT.
It fails versus AV14. One meltagun and a meltabombs…do not count…although it is likely to be only one target at av14…so blow everything else away.
Against Av13, we would need to prevent the unit performing, for all Av13 units this means no shooting. The only way we can do this is through glancing. Not brilliant, but it can work.
Av13 spam would mean facing maybe 9 total targets (that’s assuming something like Furioso Libbie, Baal, Pred spam Blood Angels from a pair taking both BA)
Conclusion?
Not perfect by a long way, but a hellovalot better than the first thoughts! Certainly operates far more ‘together’ than the first attempt….
Thoughts people?
Lotsa dakka there. Really all you're missing is melta. Fit in some MM/HF Speeders or melta Vets and life is good.
ReplyDeleteIts really difficult to try and fit that sort of stuff in as well as getting the best from the other FOC slots with this tournament rulings.
ReplyDeleteI could lose the entire inf platoon for a couple of chimeltavets, but lose 4-5 scoring units and 24 odd S7 shots, all for the beautiful melta...
its early days yet, I'll try and play around more...hopefully some comments/thoughts from Atr127 will fly around as the veteran Guard playa'
My friend Andy and I are entering a doubles tournament in November too but we're going with a Wolves/Angels combo. We've put together a rather nasty looking Mephiston/dual Raider list. That's on 4x4 tables though so we don't really need all the ranged firepower that you've got here.
ReplyDeleteI would think about dropping a Rune Priest to try and fit in some Thunderwolves if possible though. With all that shooting they'd make a perfect mopping up unit...
haha, this is really funny, everything you have written today has mirrored my own thoughts. i am pretty sure i can make the guard element more more effective.
ReplyDeletethe main problem i actually have here is that i cant afford to get a lot of this stuff. currently i would need to buy two sets of weapons teams. 3 sets of FW punnisher cannons (to make the hydras) and at least one chimera chassis (also for the hydras) and the sentinals.
painful (read impossible) for someone with no job!
i'll post my thoughts later when they are more coherent.
here is what i am currently thinking.
ReplyDeleteRune Priest (whichever power combo works for you) + meltabombs
6 Grey Hunters + meltagun in rhino
MM/HF Landspeeder
MM/HF Landspeeder
Rifleman Dread
Rifleman Dread
Rifleman Dread
Vets, Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
Vets, Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Hydra Flak Tank
Hyrda Flak Tank
this is right on 1500, with 750 each, i am pretty sure its legal. we have troops to sit on objectives, we have kept most of the twin autocannons, we have a ton of meltas, and a lot of armoured chassis. the Speeders can be used to block or tank hunt as required.
i would be scared of this.
@Claws and Fists - TWC would be great, and I always need more table time for my Dandy resins, but they just don't really fit! Shame, as I think you are right, they can mop up all the little combat squads etc that'll be hiding in MSU Razorbacks etc...
ReplyDelete@Andy - legal I think too. I like. What are the costs like for you? Not too bad? Just the Hydra's?
I think I'd be scared of it too. Lets give it a go.
Did you say back in Cambs this week? Placement over already?
cost are only the two sets of FW punisher cannons and a bit of plasticard. i can do that (and have been meaning to for ages anyway). i dont know what you have so i just went with what was ideal.
ReplyDeletei thought of a hilarious TWC/rough rider army last night as well but something tells me its not very competitive ;)
my placement finishes this friday (sadly) and i'm back this coming sunday or monday.
well, i have pretty much nothing to do today, so i have come up with an alternative idea. its not perfect by a long shot but i think it has potential. ditched all armour and just taken a load of men and a few TWC for counter attacks.
ReplyDeleteCCS, cammo cloaks, autocannon
Storm Troopers, 2 melta
Storm Troopers, 2 melta
PBS, maxed out
Vets, forward sentries, autocannon, meltagun
Vets, forward sentries, autocannon, meltagun
Vets, forward sentries, autocannon, meltagun
GH squad, 5 men, melta
GH squad, 5 men, melta
TWC, 2 wolfies, 1 storm shield
TWC, 2 wolfies, 1 power weapon
Long Fangs, 5 men, 4 missile lanchers
Long Fangs, 5 men, 4 missile lanchers
Long Fangs, 5 men, 4 missile lanchers
the vets and command squad get +1 cover save so they can hunker down and shoot the crap out of transports. the Long fangs can get cover from the vets, if nothing else is available, and pump out 12 missiles a turn at up to 6 targets. the storm troopers deepstrike in (or outflank, if we have dumb opponants). PBS is for utility. GH and TWC bolster the line or counter attack as required.
never really played an army like this, it might lack a lot of mobility but it packs a punch and is hard for a lot of armies to get rid of.
ok, the TWC idea has been refusing to budge from my head so here goes xD
ReplyDeleteCannis Wolfborn
3 TWC, PF, PW
3 TWC, PF, PW
3 TWC, Storm Shield, Mb
(i have no idea how to gear up TWC so please adjust, the point is, they are troops)
Vets, 3 melta, chimera
Vets, 3 melta, chimera
PCS, 4 flamers, chimera
Inf Squad, Autocannon, Chimera
Inf Squad, Autocannon, Chimera
(and the amusing part)
rough rides, 10, lances
crazy but maybe it might work?
now to actually do some work :P
I think that Canis only allows Fenrisian Wolves to be taken as Troops not Thunderwolves. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteLiking the ideas :) Wheres this tourney btw|?
ReplyDelete@ Claws and Fists, thats a shame, that list looked nasty, if a little 'one trick pony-ish'. thanks for pointing it out. this is my first time really looking through the Space Wolve dex so i dont know the ins and outs of it yet. still, thats not insurmountable, with a bit of tweaking, its still possible to field almost 650 points of TWC with a large armoured contingent of guard, which is the point of the list.
ReplyDelete@Killswitch, its in Brighton, organinsed by the Brighton Warlords :)
Hahahahahaha im part of brighton warlords, ill be seeing your list there *cough* time to take land raiders* cough* lol. I won the last one so time to retain my title against these upstarts ;)
ReplyDeletedamnit so much for secrecy ;)
ReplyDeletesmall world huh...
@Killswitch & Atr127...you see Andy its all about psychological warfare in these team tournaments...you will notice for instance, that I am continually referencing the 'we' in our situation...whereas our man Alex here refers to how 'I won the last one'...no reference to his partner or team here...very little respect shown, if I were his partner I most certainly would not pair with the arrogant fuck again... lol.
ReplyDeleteDrive in the wedge and hammer!
This list:
Rune Priest (whichever power combo works for you) + meltabombs
6 Grey Hunters + meltagun in rhino
MM/HF Landspeeder
MM/HF Landspeeder
Rifleman Dread
Rifleman Dread
Rifleman Dread
Vets, Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
Vets, Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Hydra Flak Tank
Hyrda Flak Tank
Is still the best one you've posted.
Costs to me are just another Ven Dread from FW and the Autocannon and Mortis arms...although I've been using the autocannon emplacement from one of the scenary packs and they look fine...cheaper too!
As Claws and Fists points out...its a no go on the Canis list.
On foot Hunters...just not a good combo. I've had alot of success with the foot slogging Loganwing, but that is the singular use of foot troops in the codex, unless you run a crazy list stacked with 60-odd marines...
I would love to run a load of rough riders though...
No, your right, my bad lol I did mean "we", pardon for that D:! I would consider mor elong range high str weaponry. Relying on melta, especialy against blood angels, raider lists etc, it can get a bit tough! Apart from that, liking the new list :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, yeah...we all know now that your a one man band! Your partner just tags along right?! lol.
ReplyDeleteApart from the raider...(which can be dealth with by blocking/MM with two speeders..thus keeping it at range where we are not endangering our troops by being in melta range)...what else do you 'anticipate' us needing?
I can see that a wall of Av13 would be a struggle as its all about the 6's then to glance to death...would be a struggle if we came across say a list with, oh I don't know, a pair of hairy Baals, Preds and a Raider, priest, CC Termies, Libbie with unleash rage and a pair of LasPLas Razor ASM troops at 1500...
Thats a genuine question not sarcasm by the way bro!? ;)
ReplyDeleteHahahahaha xD! Don't worry, I wont be taking angels. Ive already made my lists. believe it or not, but "we" are taking guard and wolves aswell. But yes, there will be angels. Also, have you not considered eldar? Seer councils would trash this without any decent combat force. Can't always rely on that 4+ nullification, trust me :(! Not just that, i can also see capture and control being a problem. Your list revolves around dakka. thats fine, but I warn you there IS LoS blocking terrain, which means shooting isnt a garenteed win. I would consider splitting your shooting and combat accordingly with the 2 books, rather than relying on 1 or the other :D.
ReplyDeletebut that means no synergy :( and say we do split the armies into a shooty and a combat half, most of the remotely decent high strength weapons use large blasts (medusas, manticores, demolishers, all of which i have two of). they therefore will be useless after a few turns because you might hit your own troops. i just dont see that working. besides, even S10 ordnance is not in any way guaranteed to slag av14, melta is.
ReplyDeletei think Andy and i come from a different school of 40k thought than you seem to. but then, i have no idea if conventional list building applies in doubles. all i know is ive been shooting the crap out of seer councils and other assaulty armies all year with very little trouble.
if we can shoehorn a PBS in there we can just chase those crappy seer councils of the board.
@Killswitch - Rune Priests....studies have shown 50% of the time they work everytime! Just like sex panther! lol.
ReplyDelete-Capture & Control problems...Half the force is mobile not stationary dakka...just for this reason. 3 of the 5 scoring units are designed for midfield work anyway, with dreadnought support, all the while keeping that rate of fire up.
It is my belief that alot of forces could not take 2 good rounds of sustained fire from this force without being drastically reduced in effectiveness, allowing those final 2 scoring units to move up or out to wherever they need to be.
Now, if it takes longer than 2 turns to reduce the enemies capacity for movement then yes...perhaps issues and making it alot tighter than would be hoped...
LOS blocking terrain...one large central piece and area terrain in each table quarter to ensure fairness across all tables? Plus a couple of other little bits dotted about...around 7 pieces in all?
Or is the terrain not tournament balanced?
So IG and Wolves for you too! Brilliant. And from your comments...you have CC focussed Wolves (cos it aint coming from Guard)...so either;
- TWC Lord and then one TWC unit, some GH thrown in almost as an afterthought...doesn't seem cohesive, considering the GH just wont be doing alot on thier own...
- Blood Claws in a Raider with Wolf Priest, with attached WG, rest of the WG sqaud sits back in cover for a TDA/CML combo...
- MetAl BaWkseS full of Grey Hunters rolling forward, all with PW and Banners...
So then what do you give the IG? Holding home objective and LR fire support... Only problem with going higher than the S7 Autocannon is that the stuff higher is template mainly as Atr127 said, with the exception of Lascannon HW Teams, which are costly, but scoring...
Hmmm...
@Atr127 - I dont reallt like the PBS becuase it can be shut down so frequently, Nids, BA, Wolves, SM, Eldar all can close it reasonably well...But when they work...
You will have to wait and see my friend :)
ReplyDelete@ Atr127: Yes, definately different thoughts :D! It will be a good weekend either way and will be a pleasure to meet you both ^^!
punisher cannons ordered. two hydras on the way. only restriction is that they will (for now) be on the chassis i use for my manticores, so we cant use both!
ReplyDeletehere is another option which enables me to field my sick vendetta conversions ;)
ReplyDeleteWolf guard battle leader, TW mount, 15 points of wargear (no codex with me)
grey hunters, 5 marines, meltagun, las/plas razorback
grey hunters, 5 marines, meltagun, las/plas razorback
rifleman dread
rifleman dread
TWC, 1 wolfie, claw
Vets, 3 melta, chimera
Vets, 2 flamers, demo, chimera
vendetta, heavy bolters
vendetta, heavy bolters
hydra flak tank
hydra flak tank
what do you think?
lots of las, autocannons, some melta, plasma and flames, and a modicum of close combat potential for anything that gets through.
@Killswitch...I can wait brother, I can wait...look forward to meeting you too man, get a few post-game beers in.
ReplyDelete@Andy, not sure what it is, but my gut feeling is not as good...No psychic defense in a game that has such an abundance these days is a bone of contention.
I tried a WGBL for a while around the Novacon lists were all flying around, but it just doesn't bring as much to the table at UK point levels.
Less scoring units is never good. Although the maximum I ever really run is 4...hypocrit I am.
8 real targets per turn, reasonably sound likelihood of impacting successfully on each...
I was going to suggest running the list you posted that I liked, but dropping one Rifleman and picking up some Long Fangs to get in the higher strength weaponry at range...even though I do feel the MM speeders can play that role...
Long Fangs sound good. plus it means you dont have to buy anything xD
ReplyDeleteam having trouble coming up with anything else that appeals to me right now, so i say we try this next week sometime.
Done.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a plan dude.
Just toying around with some ideas for my 1500 Wolves...wonder if a cheapo unit of Long Fangs in a rhino bunker with MM's might be good for midfield support for GH's...Bomb up into the midfield turn 1 and then unleash on anything close enough...Would be better with BA - Cheap sternguard and 18" speeding rhino but...
i have been doing that with squads of 10 tactical marines in my BA at 2000 points. 3 tac squads with multimelta in rhinos. zoom forward pop smoke. fire out the top for a few turns (supported by 8 missile launchers and 3 squads of vanguard) and then take some objectives. it works fairly well.
ReplyDeleteincidentally, just for shits and giggles, here is a legal version of the TWC list :)
Wolf Guard leader, TW mount, some wargear
GH squad, 5 with melta, in razorback with las/plas
TWC, 4 wolfies, quite a bit of wargear
TWC, 4 wolfies, quite a bit of wargear
Stormtroopers, 2 melta
Stormtroopers, 2 melta
Vets, 2 melta, chimera
Vets, 2 melta, chimera
rough riders, 9, sergeant with meltabombs
hydra flak tank
hydra flak tank
lol it sucks, but it would be seriously funny :)