Saturday, 25 February 2012

Paladins at 1850?

Now I know that for truly competitive armies, Draigowing is not really up there. There are far too many counters to it and balanced armies can deal with it fairly straightfowardly over the course of a game.

However, it can be a tough game, the super elite GK's can dish out some serious hurt and is just good fun to smash people with just 18-19 models..

Final point, I roll dice like a frickin' hero! I can make 2+ saves all day long!

See, I've been thinking about running some GK for a while, I haven't run them since summer when I was playing around with Coteaz builds and found it to be too boring..

SO here is my Draigo Wing.. I have 2 versions.. I am not sure which is better? I'll play both for a while for fun and see how they go. Necrons will still be my competitive army for the first half of the year at least.
First Version:

Draigo - BEAST!!
Malleus Inquisitor - Psycannon, Hammer
10 Paladins - Apothecary, 4 Psycannons, Halberds, Hammers and Swords smattered about for some wound allocation shit, but not done 'properly' just trying to squeeze in models over toys.
5 Paladins - Apothecary, 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 2 Hammers
Paladin - Daemon Hammer
Paladin - Daemon Hammer
Psyfleman  - Dread, 2 x TLAutocannons, Psybolts
Psyfleman - Dread, 2 x TLAutocannons, Psybolts

I like this version, although it is more susceptible to ID from S8+ weaponry.. Virtually unkillable through small arms fire, if S8+ long range fire support can be neutralised I think this has a chance of doing well.

Version 2

Libbie - Shrouding, Quickening, Warp Rift, Sanctuary
10 Paladins - Apothecary, 4 Psycannons, Halberds, Hammers and Swords smattered about for some wound allocation shit, but not done 'properly' just trying to squeeze in models over toys.
5 GK Termiantors - Psycannon
Paladin - Daemon Hammer
Paladin - Daemon Hammer
Psyfleman - Dread, 2 x TLAutocannons, Psybolts
Psyfleman - Dread, 2 x TLAutocannons, Psybolts
Psyfleman - Dread, 2 x TLAutocannons, Psybolts

This version is less susceptible to ID through Shrouding. It has greater long range fire support, able to gun down Long Fangs, Ravagers, Storm Ravens, vital transports etc. which again further reduce the chances of insta gibbing Paladins. The GKT's still enable me to have a good number of bodies.

The final 'FUN' element of course the super Techmarine Grenadier build we talked about a long time ago.. throw in Blind, Rad and Psycotroke Grenades along side a pair of Falchions.. 135 points, replaces a Rifleman dread.. could use it alongside the List 2.. very fun, very silly.. can kill Wraithlords in CC wounding on 2's with ease! Can throw him into any squad to enable instant death on Scarabs without using Hammerhand at all!

Actually, could do this with Inquisitor, but with the build we have above, can't do it as we don't have the FOC slots available..

Again, this is not a super competitive build, it is a fun build that is also quite effective. I wouldn't run it at tournaments, but for local pick up play lols, I think I like it! It also feeds into my school of thought that it is good to know excatly how all different army builds work, it enables me to play against almost anything with confidence.

How do you guys get on with Draigo builds? Have I got it wrong, is it a tough tournament build? How have you guys fared against them locally and at tourney level?


  1. Haven't lost to them yet! I say yet as Its always a bit lucky (well, dice dependent but that's just the way the whole game is)

    The trick is to kill all the dreads first and limit the amount of units you can reach out and touch as you need your vehicles to block and tank shock. once all that is done you simply ignore it or tank shock and block it from multiple directions. they either flee or kill a 35 point transport a turn. I also hit as many under a jaws template or stay at 12 inches and rapid fire (with blocking to stop the charge + murderous hurricane to taste.

    In a word id be totally screwed without my double jaws priests. most great players roll high so its win win!

    They are a terror tho - but once you have cracked how to play against it then your golden - one of the reasons why I dont think its really taken in a competitive tournament or do that well at them. Its a massive rock army and if it gets a bad match up then its curtains so no, I think your spot on.

    What would you do with your necrons vs such an army?

  2. @MJayC50 - agreed mate, crack it and you are good. Necrons - shoot and move, get the Dreads first or negate their effects for a couple of turns with night fight and pour fire into paladins until they drop to one wound a piece, in the mean time, fly over with Barges and start dropping models, Scarabs and Wraiths use speed to out manouevre and kill Dreads. Immortals would stay on board and at range to shoot.
    The key to it I think would be patience with Necrons. Due to lack of S8+, AP2 (bar a few Eldritch Lances) it'd be weight of fire and that could take some time...

    As I say, part of being confident is facing them and 'cracking it'..also why I run loads of different armies all the time lol!

  3. Exactly that.

    When people see 10/15 W2 terminators that can pump out 16+ s7 rending shots a turn and are no slouches in combat, they get scared initially.

    If you see them for what they are, limited immobile and unflexible you can exploit that. Funny thing is you here "melta" as the answer, yet the majority of the time melta comes in 1's or 2's, draigo is taking that first shot (neither of you have said it though). My sisters would have some issues with that list, but the tools are there. Just have a plan because they can do well if you don't.

    Personally for me, it would be a case of shielding / herding them into a position where I could DCA charge (1000 point unit vs 200 points) and just look to tie them up for a turn and deal with the rest. Things like empty rhinos / immolators would come in handy for me. Pepper the shit out of the smaller units, suicide dominion to either try and pop the small squad or get draigo down if I get first.

    Do actually need to think about this match up because it is the sort of list you'd see at a big event purely because its a powered codex and very cheap to make.

  4. Oh and my plan is not as "simple" as that, just initial thoughts. Use the fact they have the most limited threat vectors of any army in the game (?) against them. Want to shoot? Here shoot at this 35 point empty transport with your 1000 point unit.

    Want to shoot? Here shoot at this suicide MM immolator gunning for your dreads.

  5. The Draigo "melta absorber" is obvious bud. Didn't think it needed saying.

    It is being seen at tournaments mate, since middle of last year and now it is getting more and more exposure.

    It is not a balanced army at all and will be rolled by good players with balanced lists, but that doesn't mean you can do it without thinking about it..

  6. Thats what I meant, its obvious (that draigo takes the first shot, and melta comes in 1's or 2's) but people still talk about it as an answer when it isn't. I actually explicitly said neither of you have mentioned it, but I kept hearing it as "an answer" to paladins, was trying to debunk that myth.

    Assuming your talking to the other dude about it being seen around as you know that I've played against it, and you know that I always fancied playing it myself.

    A good player playing it will still give any other player a hard match, balanced list or not. Its also one of those "deathwing" style armies in which it can swing either which way. It can beat itself or just not give you a chance to beat it by not failing enough saves.

    Its still something you need to prepare for because round 1 or 2 of any event you could well see it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it performing well later in tournaments.

    But still, I'll question anyone that takes an army that is basically one unit and some "tag ons" lol.

  7. I.E it was a response to your "cracking it" is not "I have melta I am fine" basically.

    Probably still unclear what I mean, but what the hey.

  8. NOOOO I'm losing you to Grey Knights oh well gotta go with what you enjoy playing. I like the second list more. My friend ran something similar at 2k for Draigo wing and I remember it being a bitch to deal with. My only suggestion is to possibly drop the two paladins with daemon hammers and get yourself a dread knight. My god are those things f*cking annoying and powerful!

    1. Not the case at all Paul!
      I just enjoy playing all kinds of stuff.. I'll play with this for a fortnight or so then will have solid ideas of what it can do and how to beat it, outside of theoryhammer and applying the same principles as other termie armies...

  9. Well I've been playing paladins for a couple of months now and they are alot of fun. Its quite a hard list to play right as one movement mistake will cost you big time. DE are your worst match up by far but if your packing enough dreads then you stand a chance, I took 7 points away from nathen Roberts in a none KP game at Caledonian.

    I've not done too bad with them either, Finnishing 6th at rolling thunder and then 6th at caledonian before a list penalty :( and then 4th behind Ven on VP difference at jolly toys. So to say they are uncompetitive is false IMO. They arnt as competetive as some list and yes they are a rock but it's a rock with teeth.

  10. Hi Tim,
    Thanks for commenting! Great to have insight from someone who's played them regularly. I'm glad you have commented positively as well, provides confidence in the army's ability.

    Your placing have been great bud, you've got to be happy with those! well, apart from finishing behind me.. that can't be good! lol! But I could say the same about caledonian..just not as close!

    With DE then, am I right in thinking you'd go Ravagers then Blasters then Venoms? Take the volume of S8/AP2 out first, then remove Venoms..

    In terms of army building..second HQ - Libbie or Inquisitor? I lean towards Libbie for utility..

    And at 1850, 2 or 3 Dreads?

    Do you use the Solodins?


  11. In terms of second HQ I would always go Libby. He add too much to ignore. Shrouding means your guys stay alive longer and also keeps your dreads alive. Also sanctuary and MoT are great, Mot means you can tackle anything in the game. And last but not least psychic protection is important, and combined with the -4 from the dreads your pretty safe. I know you prob know most of that but just explains my points.

    In terms of DE your target priority is pretty spot on. Sometimes if you go first and they set up it's better to target the true born venom with 4 blasters in as they will then be out of range-2birds one dread :).

    I would also @1850 use 3 dreads+ as you really need that long range firepower to kill transports and the like. I also like to take a Ven dread and make it scoring- that +shrouding in cover is one pain in the ass to shift.

    On solodins, I use one. They are very fragile and I always reserve them. Sometimes I DS them and run interference with long fangs and such, but mainly just walk onto an objective.

    I also use 5 intercepters which again go in reserve and just pick their targets and late game objective grab in combo with the grand stratergy.

    On grand stratergy- I find I mainly use scoring especially in these more popular ETC style missions with duel objectives but it's nice when you just play a streight up KP mission an get to choose something a bit more interesting. Just have a play and see what you think it's usually pretty obvious what to go for.

    Great blog btw hope to meet you on the table top sometime soon :)

  12. If you are running 3+ dreads and only one solodin, is it safe to assume you are only runing one big mob of Paladins?
    Using Grand Strategy to keep everything else scoring when neccessary?

    Thanks for explaing the points, Good point on trueborn venom first...two birds indeed man!

    cheers on the blog, we try ;) and yeah, hope to catch a game at a tournament soon man! See this bad boy in action lol!

  13. Ye I only run one big unit of paladins, and 1 solodin. You can have a rather large foot print with one unit to cover alot of ground, the trick is to sling shot the units with assault moves and such. I haven't tried to run more than one block of them so by all means try it out. You can usually get 2 objectives with the paladin unit anyway, and ye as you said just make the other stuff scoring.

    I would def advocate intercepters as they really help with the mobility issue at times.

    I'm currently trying a tech marine with grenades at the min with mixed results. The 2+ cover save is really nice when you can get some ruins :).

    I'm taking a 1750 list to the GT but I'm not too happy with it. 1850+ is the sweet spot.

    Just remember one key point....


  14. I will try some interceptors out, got a load of spare Strikes that I need to do something with..

    Agreed 1850 allows you to get just what you need to play with..I think nay smaller and it gets too tight.

    I've thought about the Techmarine before, if you search the GK links on the site, I threw up a "Grenadier" build ages ago.. I think it's a fun unit and with Rad, Blind, Psycotroke it is crazy! I lke to throw on falchions as well so he gets 3 attacks on the charge with 2 x S8 "Fist" attacks from servo harness as well.

    I think it may be overkill though! It will certainly ensure the units slaughters in combat, but it doesn't really help wound allocation as he only has one wound..

    Key question - Apothecary or don't bother? Cheap when applied against 10 Paladins...only 7.5 points per dude to get FNP..even cheaper when draigo and Libbie run with them..but a lot of the shooting aimed at Paladins is S8+ and ignores FNP... in contradiction to this, the inclusion of 3+ Dreads means it must be hard to use Anti Tank against Paladins when the Dread are punishing you.. so small arms fire is used vs Paladins and then FNp would come into its own?

    And on Draigo.. yeah, 3+ all day long vs lascannons and rail guns!

  15. I ran the 10 man unit without an apothecary for a while especially below 2000 points so it can work without one by all means. But at 1850 I think its worth it. They are great and it means Dreigo is taking FNP against rockets which is nice. And with the FNP DE are alot easier to handle. Your right about the anti tank stuff not always firing at the paladins because the dreads need dealing with. Just make sure your getting a cover save as best you can but that goes without saying really.

    75pts isn't too bad for what you get in a 10 man unit but it is more of a luxury than a nesasary IMO. The dreads are more important and if you have points left over then squeeze it in if not you will be ok without it but I do miss it lol.

  16. Its tough to fit everything in though at 1850..I've gotten 2 quick games in already today without FNP vs DE and it is still ok.. running 4 dreads..

    Libbie - MoT, Sanc, Shroud
    Grenadier Techmarine - Blind, Psycotroke
    10 Paladins - bullshit, 4 Psycannons, NO APOTHECARY
    1 Paladin - Hammer
    Ven PsyfleDread
    3 x PsyfleDreads

    Its been pretty sick...when you know how to play too..nasty... lol!

  17. Nice input Tim, only person I've seen running a lot of pallies down south is sharan so interesting to see your take on it, I too agree that DE must be a hell of a bad match up, especially if going 2nd.

    Ven are you going GT too?

  18. Hi Rupert.. no I didn't get a ticket bud..will miss out on the big one!!
    All your lot going?