Monday, 24 October 2011

Imperial Guard 1750 Options for tournament

Brighton Warlords - 52 man, 1750 tourney is coming up in just under 3 weeks and I haven't played a game of 40k for almost 3 months...

Time to get back into things...I've been thinking about the armies I can take and play well without having any practice time, principally due to my experience level with them.
That gives me:
Dark Eldar are out because the terrain is not as blocking at Brighton as DE require to survive and do well, although Mike Marlow played DE last Brighton and came in 15th (ish), a few places higher than it can be done..but I want a Top 10 this time, so they are out.

BA are out as I cannot build a list that I really like. I can build all jumpers, Sang Guard army, full Pred spam/Razor spam mech and everything inbetween...but I can't get them to work for me.. I may revisit them very soon..

Wolves have been my go to army for a long time. I have extensive experience with them and I am always in contention when I run them...

GK I have a competitive Coteaz spam and Crowe spam ready to go if I want to, let's revisit that another day.

IG is what I want to discuss today.. I have experience with them (not arm chair, IRL...) but not for a long time, almost a year in fact...and have never taken them to a tournament...

The amount of money spent on them to get them up and running as a competitive army sort of dictates that I should at least use them once in a tourney setting...

Option 1: Take Atreides army!! lol.. I have the models to build out Andy's list and just take that..but I'd tweak it very slightly...

CCS 3 Plasmaguns Chimera
2 x Storm Troopers, 2 Melta, Chimera
PCS 2 Meltaguns, Chimera
2 x Inf Squad, Autocannon
Vets 3 Melta, Demolitons, Autocannon, Chimera
Vets 3 Melta, Demolitons, Autocannon, Chimera
Vets 3 Plasmaguns, Autocannon, Chimera

I like the hard push on the enemy using the Scout moves from both a pair of Storm Troopers with Melta and from a pair of Vendetta's (full of either Demo Vets or the more disposable (in some situations) command squads)
I like the quantity of Av12, making the S6-S8 spam really struggle to be effective against a wall of Av12.
I like the overlapping ranges and strength values of multilasers, autocannons and lascannons..
Very effective and nasty up close and personal..
The Stormies can of course Deep Strike leaving their Chimera's free to be hijacked by the Infantry Squads, acting as disruption units with accurate DS'ing
I dont like......single Hydra's...

Option 2: A midfield force...I know this may be tough to take on strong midfield forces like Wolves and GK, however, there were only 2 SW forces at Brighton last time, of which I was one...
NOTE: Every infantry unit has a Chimera…

Company Command Squad – 3 Plasma
Storm Troopers – 2 Melta
Storm Troopers – 2 Melta
Veteran Squad 3 Grenade Launchers, Demolitions
Platoon Command Squad – 2 melta
Infantry Squad -Autocannon
Infantry Squad -Autocannon
Veteran Squad – 3 Melta
Hellhound - HMM
Hellhound - HMM
Leman Russ Demolisher - HHF
Leman Russ Demolisher - HHF

Still have a good number of vehicles (12), 2 of which are Av14..
The mobility is created here through an overall loss to long range firepower, a gunline no more..
No Vendetta's for TL S9, or Scout pressure with Demo Vets..
There are a lot of ways to block Alpha Strikes across a variety of armies and some it is useless against.. so that is not the end of the world..
What do you guys think on this one?

Option 3: A little bit of me.. this is similar to what I used to run (but then, they all are!) with more troops..

Company Command Squad - 3 Meltaguns and a flamer, Chimera - HHF
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Meltaguns, Chimera - HHF
Infantry Squad - Autocannon
Infantry Squad - Autocannon
Veteran Squad 3 Melta, Autocannon, Chimera - HHF
Veteran Squad 3 Melta, Autocannon, Chimera - HHF
Veteran Squad 3 Melta, Autocannon, Chimera - HHF
Veteran Squad 3 Plasma, Autocannon, Chimera - HHF
Hydra x 2
Hydra x 2

Better Hydra set up as far as I am concerned, more vulnerable, more reliable.
No Demo Vets, but then Krak grenades and a butt load of melta is pretty decent..
Lots of Autocannons and Mutlilasers..
Only one Plasma unit..
Hmm...not sure on this one..

Overall, I think I like either Strike Force Atreides or the midfield force.. What do you guys think?


  1. intersting stuff, especially because I think you may have ever-so-slightly missed why my list works (or at least why i think it works).

    interestingly enough, Steleks post this morning hit the nail on the head. Diffusion. my list, and of course the first one you posted, as this in abundance. The reason 4 hydras are not needed is because there are autocannons everywhere else in the list as well. there are also multilasers everywhere, and there is melta everywhere. even more in your list in fact. there are almost no units in either list that cannon perform well at both long and short range. this is why, unlike most guard lists, it doesnt simply fold and die if you destroy one element of it.

    furthermore, the alphastrike should most often be a threat, and nothing more. as a tactic, you will probably find you rarely use it as it is too open to fails of all kinds. the massive amounts of melta, demo, heavy flamers and plasma are best saved for one ore more huge hits in around turn 3 or 4. most armies you will face now (BA, SW, GK, BT) atill rely on holding midfield. let them get there, and then hit them all in one turn. most wont survive if you have enough left, and any that do get mopped up by multilasers and hydras. i may sound arrogant, or like i am mathhammering, but i am not bullshitting, it works almost all the time. if you do play this list, timing is critical, and due to lack of practice and inexperience vs certain armies i still get it wrong sometimes.

    incidentally, it is why my worst matchup is shooty BA and other guard. i end up having to go to them. this is why i want to like your second list. though it is possibly a little light on bodies, it has the ptential to move to an enemy. however, i think you have too many expensive tanks and not enough long range firepower. midfield is not where the guard belong, unless everything else is dead. i have tried this many times and i am very sad to say that without dedicated blob squads, it really does fail.

    The final list might be your best bet. it is superficially similar to most guard lists you will see at tournaments. however, it takes elements that we both developed a year or so ago and this makes is much better than the everage list in my opinion. Autocannons in the vet squads, meltas in the command squad not plasmas, infantry bubblewrap squads which are still a threat vector, this is great stuff, and possibly more your style. the only problem with it is that it is still quite static.

    in summary, the second list wont work, in my opinion. the first will, but it will take some practice. the third is probably the easiest to play, but it is also very strong, and will scare the shit out of a lot of people.

  2. and KS, those lists have failed everywhere i have seen them recently. they fold like a deck of cards when faced with mid range GK firepower or a really scary assault unit.

  3. I actually think Pred Spam would do really well at Brighton, 6xAV13 5xAV11, plenty of high quality fire - then again, if it all goes wrong, it goes wrong quick.

    Guard are a good choice as they are just tough to deal with and can deal with anything.

    I still think KS's GK list is arguably the best list to take, but outside of that, SW/IG and BA as an outside bet are good for that meta.

    Reason I liked KS's list is that it can shoot with anything (I.E Andy's mech IG), but it has things like the purifiers/DCA to deal with people like Sharran and his deathstar's, and had the frag ruling not come up, KS had done it, then he went and improved that list and ended up winning a ton of events.

    I like Andy's approach though, a list that wont fold after a couple of bad turns. My Deathwing were like that, I had 2 great turns against a GK list, was basically in a winning position, and 1 bad turn of saves, and 1 bad turn of difficult terrain took what would have been a tabling for me, into a tabling on me.

    I quite like the idea of a some what hybrid Blood Angel list. Foot devs with FNP. Plenty of razors, and either MM attack bikes or some baals to just be a pain - and either a honor guard or mephiston.

    Other than that, since Pete allows forge world, I'd be half tempted by a furisoso of doom list. Triple furioso w/ drop pods, then 2x heavy support dreads w/ drop pods, then plenty of fire support or just godhammer troop carriers.

  4. Thanks for thoughts guys,
    Killswitch - you mean take your GK list? Or your IG list? See today's post for thoughts on that bra'h...

    Atreides - I got the MSU element of it, what you are talking about, Stelek's diffusion concept, is nothing new to MSU is it really? It's the same strength of MSU that we've all been working and running for the last year or so...nothing is critical, its loss - not a big deal because there are multiple units that can fulfill the same function...from at, ai to scoring and survival through confused target priority and saturation..

    Curious that you feel list 3 is the best shot, I agree it is the most 'point and click', very simple to run and effective at it..

    Bully - what are your thoughts regarding MSU Coteaz spam vs midfield firepower? a la Atreides second comment?

  5. no i don't think it is quite that. MSU does it best, sure, but it goes further than that. it is like a greater form of redundancy where nearly every unit (or unit + transport) is able to take on almost everything at all ranges, BUT nothing has the majority of one type of firepower in it. i guess redundancy across the entire army rather than just specific units.

    i meant that the last one is your best bet if you don't have a lot of time to practice.

  6. ok, I do get that.. it's like deep learning for MSU...understanding its strengths and having it applied to the very core of the army, army wide..
    Alright, cool on the list choice..I'll go for that if I run Guard..

  7. exactly. sorry if it sounded patronising or something before, wasn't meant to be :\

    the problem with my approach is that a truly shooty list with nothing but long range firepower gives you big problems. you cant quite outshoot them and if you try to move closer you often get shot to pieces anyway. still, cant win em all!

  8. Didn't sound that way at all bro... I probably did skip over that fundamental point, your highlighting it made me think more deeply on it.

    I can see how, when out classed at range, closing the gap can be a tough slog...

  9. Thought I'd make a rare post.

    Of the three, I'd go for list three, assuming Brighton has standard missions (I haven't read the rulespack).

    Atreides' list is a great IG list for those missions where you either have to grab large numbers of objectives, and have mobile units moving towards differing targets - such as at Mayhem the other weekend.

    However, in standard missions, I don't think it's potent enough to stand up to the top lists. You're forcing yourself to either a) stand off with not enough firepower to really scare people or b) play the midfield game and move up, at which case you're at a disadvantage to most Marine codices, especially GK.

    By making every unit flexible (i.e. autocannons on the veterans, who'll be moving most of the time), you've lost some points efficiency, and thus effectiveness.

    However, I fully appreciate that this list probably suits Atreides' playstyle - and firmly believe that a good player can make 'unusual' lists work to great effectiveness.

    I also don't think gunline guard armies 'fold like a deck of cards' - it's rare that you see this happening in the hands of a good guard player. Although good grey knights are a tough opponent (for anyone), I don't think they've got an overwhelming edge on good IG.

  10. thanks for the different perspective there :) i do sometimes get caught up in my own views!

    i have to disagree on the points effectiveness of autocannons, because in almost every game i use both the meltas and the autocannons to good effect. if i didnt have the autocannon i'd be wasting three turns as the meltavets couldnt fire at range, and if i didnt have the meltas the unit would be useless up close. i see what you are saying, and conventional wisdom would agree with you, but the way i try to play each game i generally use both.

    additionally, the extra three autocannons are a meer 30 points total. if that isnt good value i dont know what is (and i cant imagine what else i could get for 30 points).

    your other points are perfectly valid, especially the last one. i was exaggerating for effect, but i do genuinely think many guard lists can be quite fragile if the player is not careful.

  11. Mr Sinister, thanks for sharing! Brighton is standard missions..
    List 3 gets another vote of confidence..
    Valid points for sure, there is something there I think... I remember the back and forth debate between Atreides, myself, BroLo, Killswitch and several others relating to Autocannons in Vet squads over a year ago when we first threw them in there... the role of the unit became 'confused' by the presence of the Autocannon..but as Andy states, its a 10 point bit of kit that means in the right situation force can be applied at range quite nicely..does it stop you using them for Alpha Strike duty? Nope. It helps in fact to get the extra range from the HWT base!

    Overall, the 30 points on Autocannon's gives options and versatility and perhaps could be spent on a camo net for a hydra or another veteran skill, but meh...not great options..upgrading to more plasma over we are talking perhaps.

    The Atreides army is all about Andy's playstyle I Sinister points out, I think I can emulate that quite comfortably without straying particularly far from my own..

  12. Some interesting thoughts - and something I'd probably consider playtesting, but for the fact I never have an opportunity to playtest!

    With simply those 30 points, there's little better you could do (probably not camo nets...) - I'd personally find 5 more and get a Commissar for the infantry squads, so they could make a mini-blob if required. I've found even a mini-blob to be a great deterrent against high-damage, but low-attacks units. Think Mephiston, a Thunderlord with Saga of the Bear etc. - they'll happily hold these for a couple of turns. They also provide a measure of deep strike defence, and a speedbump.

  13. interesting idea there. i may well try that out. i actually have a useless 5 points in that list so that would be perfect. and of course, if i did want them to run away i could always just kill off the commissar with wound allocation!