Wednesday 1 June 2011

Crowe Army, Potential?




So my friend got me thinking, can Crowe work? Well many people keep pumping out these lists and you know what, I think this is the first time I am going to agree with Stelek from YTTH and say yes, Crowe can work, but only via a fairly basic and spammy list.

Why? Well I think the best way to make use of the “crowe” tax it to maximize shooting. If you mix this with the fact that purifiers have access to cheap halberds, cheap hammers & a base of 2 attacks and the nasty cleansing flame, they are also great at kicking stuff in combat. No, they aren’t amazing in combat, but I would consider them to be effective, just like a space wolf grey hunter unit. The unit has the potential to be kitted out for a few points and effectively boost their close combat potential. I say, why not? Not like it costs many points.....

So after having a little think about it and going over a list with my friend, I came to the conclusion that an MSU approach to Crowe can work. It has the potential to pick up a lot of Psycannons, you can still take Dreadnoughts with Autocannons, and the units are scoring. Horde units don’t look half as scary, combat unit can be dealt with by assaulting them with 2 of your own units, and there is plenty of redundancy to be had. Let’s look at the list.

Can Crowe Work?

First we pick up Crowe for obvious reasons. What to do with him I wander. Well I thought long and hard about it, and have come to the conclusion…not much. He can provide some area denial; after all he is a great speed bump. He can, with his high I and 4+ rending sword, kill msu units by himself. This isn’t something to be taken lightly and your opponent knows this. His not Mephiston, not by a long shot, but by keeping him behind your advancing Rhinos / Razorbacks, I’m sure he can come in use. I would personally not even bother doing that in a Killpoint mission. Hide him behind a LOS blocking terrain piece and just go to ground lol. Another use is putting him on your objective in capture and control behind a rhino / razorback which can block LOS. This stops your opponent thinking it will be fairly easy to bum rush your objective, as he can effectively hold them up long enough for another unit of yours to arrive (re-roll able armour/inv saves is pretty juicy). This could really break your opponent’s plans in such a mission.

Are Venerable Dreads worth it?

Next we look at the Elite section. Since purifiers have now been moved to Troops, there isn’t much fancy stuff left here. I love the Venerable dreadnoughts, but the option seems a little too expensive for my liking. If I use them as melta support, I should ask myself (do I really need it?) If im taking a plethora of Psycannons, even Land raiders can be knocked down, so perhaps not. If I’m using them as Rifleman, surely that’s quite the investment over a Heavy support Dreadnought. I think we can skip this section for now, and come back to it if we have points spare.

Is spamming Purifiers the only way?

So the fun section, Troops. As I stated at the beginning, I think an MSU spam list would best work with Crowe. For his tax (the Crowe Tax) you want to get the most out of it right? So let’s look at filling our Troops slots with them. 6 units of 5 can do that nicely. How to equip them? Well first, the obvious choice is 2 Psycannons. These are great weapons and for the price, need little explaining.

Next Ill take a Hammer on each squad. Why? It stops them getting bogged down by big nasties such as trygons. Even with force weapons, if I’m activating it I need a 6 to wound. I’d rather have the Hammer there just incase. Also a STR 10 weapon is nice to instant gib characters hiding in units as well, or can even be used as a last resort against vehicles sitting on objectives.

Next are the Halberds. Some players like to keep their purifiers cheap, but I say “Why not?” Honestly, why not? 4 pts for 2 halberds per squad is a bargain. It give you the chance to knock down a few of your opponents models before they overwhelm your unit (its going to happen if you in combat with a proper assault unit). Id rather pay 4pts any day to be given that chance. Not many Combat specialist units out there are more than I5, even characters, so I’m going to put my hands up and say that I’d be stupid not to take them, so I will.

So far, each unit is looking at 149pts per unit, not too shabby, but we haven’t put them in a transport yet, but which one to choose? I for one love the Rhino. Its cheap, comes with 2 fire points (just right for our Psycannons) and doesn’t care for moving 12 inches to get into position. Razorbacks are also nice as it gives us an extra threat and potential priority target for our opponent. How do we get something in-between which would work best for us? Well we can’t take Chimeras so that’s not really possible. Let’s take a closer look at the Razorback.

How can we give ourselves more useful units without affecting the others? Well I believe it’s possible. Having a Razorback move up and unloading your purifiers behind the razorback which is pivoted sideways. Why? Because now your opponent has 2 threats next turn. In your next turn you move the Razorbacks (which should pop smoke the turn before so you know) out the way 6 inches, and viola you now have double the threats to your opponent. To prevent this, your opponent needs to immobilize, wreck or weapon destroy the Razorback in front. Even if it is wrecked or immobilized, the unit can move forward around and shoot. This isn’t everyone’s desire though. When using a Rhino, you will never have to be on foot, so when facing armies such as dark elder which punishes foot based armies, it isn’t the best plan hence the usefulness of a Rhino. I however believe putting pressure on an opponent to deal with multiple threats from turn 2 can be a larger benefit overall. Bare in mind if your opponent lacks anti-infantry firepower, you could still move the Razorback forward 12 and disembark, whilst still unleashing a reasonable amount of firepower. The more threats your opponent has the more worry he has to deal with them.

So lets recap, 6 Units of 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds & 1 Hammer in a Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy bolter & Psybolts. Pretty solid amount of shooting there.

What is needed to support the army?

Onto Fast Attack. Interceptors are nice, but don’t really fit in a Crowe list at 1750pts. Id rather look to the Elite section if I needed to fill in FOC slots.

Heavy Support. We all know what to take, and I don’t think I need to delve much into this. 3 Dreadnoughts with dual Autocannons & Psybolts. Great buy. One thing to consider is moving one up with the Razorback wall when playing psyker lists. Things like Psyker battle squads and Rune priests will find it hard to cast their powers with reinforced Aegis nearby.

So here’s the list:

Army List - 1750pts

Crowe: 150pts

5 Purifiers: 200ps
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Psybolt Ammo & Searchlights.

5 Purifiers: 199pts
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.

5 Purifiers: 199pts
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.

5 Purifiers: 199pts
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.

5 Purifiers: 199pts
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.

5 Purifiers: 199pts
2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.

Dreadnought: 135pts
Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

Dreadnought: 135pts
Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

Dreadnought: 135pts
Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

Grand Total: 1750pts
Killpoints: 16




Plenty of firepower (18 str 6 shots Twin-linked, 20 Str 4 Storm bolters, 24-48 str 7 rending shots & 12 str 8 Twin-linked shots). Decent counter attack capabilities from the Purifiers with Hammers & Halberds (and even possibly Crowe lol), and lots of redundancy to go with it. I think it’s a fairly boring list, but in terms of competitiveness, it’s certainly reliable & balanced.

Will I use this list personally? Well I may give it a few games but I’m still enjoying my own grey knight list, we shall see as time goes on.

Cheers,
Killswitch

17 comments:

  1. Pretty much the list I am going to give a pop against Andy at the weekend (in fact its identical - but really there is not much you can do with Crowe lists imo). I did like Steleks list with the purg squads - just an insane amount of psycannon fire - but having that aegis barrier for psy defense is golden imo.

    Rather handy how 6xSquads Crowe and the 3 dreads left you the single point for the nifty searchlight upgrade.

    I am really looking forward to testing the list - and the other Coteaz/Purifier based one I have and seeing how I get on.

    My only concern about keeping Crowe near your force - and this is only in "oh dear I cant believe I let that happen moments" - is people multicharging him for the "free" furious charge. Really this is only if they can get like 2 tanks, as what would charge Crowe + 4 I6 power weapon attacks b4 you get to hit back ;D. Its not a criticism - just something I thought about while I was writing my list (and wanted to share it!!)

    Nice article though KS!

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  2. Very fair point and something I forgot to mention. Im hoping people wont put Crowe into such a situation but yes there is that aswell. His so awful its hard to keep him "useful" at times lol

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  3. Nice list. I always thought it'd be worth putting a Crowe army in Rhinos as to pop the hatch and shoot the psycannons out of it. Thought about doing that at all?

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  4. Very similar to the first ever GK list I ever put together, I'm only interested in power armour so ignoring the henchmen the codex screams MSU.

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  5. I'm going to agree with Anonymous up there and ask why no rhinos?
    You can shoot out of the top hatch without getting your squads out. This means no 'wasted' points as your psycannons get some use whilst they get into position.
    If you drive 12" and get them out to get into position first turn that's also fine as you've not sacrificed any shooting from your transport to do so.
    On the other hand, with the Razors, you need to work in a proper mechanised fashion, with the boys on foot supporting the vehicles and vice versa...this is ok until the anti infatnry fire starts raining down on them.
    5 man squads of 'just marines' still die very easily.
    On foot, they can add their firepower, but they lose the protection of their metal box and can also be assaulted unless you properly use rhino triangles to protect from this. I know that with cleansing flame and a couple of halberds you'll get a few wounds in, but I know from experience (all I have played against for some time now is DE,SW and....GK - Bringer of Death..) that they really aren't combat troops versus anything that also packs a punch in combat. WS4 and S4 only go so far...I fully agree though that for 4 points...why wouldn't you. Unless its a temptation to fool you into thinking they are kick ass combat dudes. Maybe in a good number but 5..definately not.

    Stick half of them in rhinos? Half in Razors? Would certainly protect your investment for half the troops without them getting out.

    Plus objective placement is quite crucial for a purifier army no? Got to ensure its a close game, as the army does not have the mobility or ability for a single unit to go off onits own and either just sit on home base or claim off-centre objectives.

    Its a very expensive unit to be sat on an objective, say in your deployment area and far away from the enemy to try and deny them the objective through movement and blocking midfield.
    Also this means that your psycannons won't get much action, taking out up to 8 S7R shots from the game..important therefore to cluster objectives and play a tight game?

    All just thoughts and IMHO of course...

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  6. I biggest bugbear with any of your GK lists Alex is you seem insistent on running Psy-Ammo Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters and not Assault Cannons.

    Why?

    Yeah sure you get more Transports for your points but it is only 3xS6 shots. So is only effective against units or vehicles with AV12 or less. And even with AV12 the best you can hope for is a glance.

    Sure the Assault Cannon costs 30pts more but it has an extra shot and much more importantly is S7 with Rending. So it can penetrate any vehicle in the game so is therefore much more effective than Heavy Bolter:

    S7 Assault Cannon (based off 3.56 hits from 4 shots at BS4 Twin-Linked) =

    versus AV10: 1.78 pens, 2.37 effects overall
    versus AV11: 1.18 pens, 1.78 effects overall
    versus AV12: 0.59 pens, 1.18 effects overall
    versus AV13: 0.59 pens, 0.59 effects overall
    versus AV14: 0.40 pens, 0.59 effects overall

    Whereas a S6 Heavy Bolter (based off 2.67 hits from 3 shots at BS4 Twin-Linked) =

    versus AV10: 0.89 pens, 1.33 effects overall
    versus AV11: 0.44 pens, 0.89 effects overall
    versus AV12: 0 pens, 0.89 effects overall
    versus AV13: 0 pens, 0 effects overall
    versus AV14: 0 pens, 0 effects overall

    That is a 32$-50% increase in effectiveness against armour. And again it can penetrate AV13 and 14.

    Furthermore as well all know Rending means that you are killing more infantry per turn than none-Rending weapon will be.

    Hence why my Crowe list is:

    Crowe: 150pts

    5 Purifiers: 239ps
    2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Master-Crafted Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Assault-Cannon & Psybolt Ammo.

    5 Purifiers: 239ps
    2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Master-Crafted Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Assault-Cannon & Psybolt Ammo.

    5 Purifiers: 239ps
    2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Master-Crafted Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Assault-Cannon & Psybolt Ammo.

    5 Purifiers: 239ps
    2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Master-Crafted Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Assault-Cannon & Psybolt Ammo.

    5 Purifiers: 239ps
    2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Master-Crafted Hammer. Razorback with Twin-linked Assault-Cannon & Psybolt Ammo.

    Dreadnought: 135pts
    Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

    Dreadnought: 135pts
    Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

    Dreadnought: 135pts
    Two Twin-Linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo.

    Grand Total: 1750pts
    Killpoints: 14

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  7. Oh and that is 40x S7 Rending shots per turn off the Razorbacks and Purifiers compared to 18x S6 (none rending) and 24x S7 Rending shots per turn from your Razorbacks and Purifiers.

    So overall I loose 2 none-storm bolter shots per turn, but I have pretty much double the amount of S7 Rending in my army compared to your list.

    That has to be better.

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  8. i actually agree with Alex on this one. with rhinos you lose a lot of firepower and the extra space is wasted due to smaller squads. GK's should not be afraid to move forward and dismount imo. use the triangle formation thingy if you need to, or cover if it is available, but from turn two the amount of firepower you have will be obscene.

    as for assault cannons, well, really what is the point in paying so much for an upgrade you don't need in the least. the number of psycannons in this list is easily enough without spending hundreds of points to get a few more. 3 S6 twin linked shots is fantastic against infantry and light armour, and instant kills anything that is T3. much better deal if you ask me.

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  9. I completely agree Neil, only thing is, I lioe the 36inches. I dnt see the need in more anti tank. The heavy bolters are cheap and lays down some nasty anti mc and infantry, which can be kept further back if need be. Most of the anti tank is done by the psfle dreads, and the purifiers back them up. 24 inch range guns means you have to push forward which is not my ppaystyle. I do like the idea though nabd your shooting is certainly much deadlier than mine. Not sure if its better in terms of losing the extra hull/scroring unit in such a small afmy as is. Would love to hear how they fare for you Neil.

    Andy, its down to choice. Theres no better. I lose out on the hatch with this list but gain additional firepower.

    I guess its more of the option ratyer than down to math. For 10pts over a rhino I cn have a few extra medium str shots to help thin infantry squads to a size which my purifiers can handle in combat whilst the purifiers and dreads de mech. Its also nice to have some long range in the list rather thn just the dreads, again down to playstyle.

    Im always open minded so i cn see the benefits of rhinos, and ofcourse the assaupt cannons. Love to hear some reports on what works well for you all.

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  10. On the 24" range issue of Ass Cannons..this matches rather well doesn't it with another 2 weapons prevalent in a GK army doesn't it???

    Just in case, I mean Psycannons and Storm Bolters.

    Means the army works cohesively in terms of range. All bar dreads are focussed on a 30" range, which after aggressive deplyment and a single turn of movement should cover enough.

    Used to work for Deathwing.. 30" killzone.

    Re Rhino vs Razor - in my GK I am running Razor, but I am not running Purifiers with 2 cannons in each...so don't feel I am wasting in turns one and occassionally 2 as well as I get into position...with 12 psycannons inside razors however, you are losing a whopping 24-48 S7 shots per turn in order to gain 18 S6...apples and oranges though so hey ho..

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  11. I think you miss my point. Turn one your most likepy going to need to move over 6 to be in range. This makes rhinos moot turn one. turn 2 with the tactic explained above, I havnt lost firepower, i have gained it due to keeping still on foot, and the addition of razorbacks. Its down to preferance

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  12. No I get you bro...I agree its preference... have stated apples n oranges...same difference...you have to be on foot to max out your cannons, rhinos can be in boxes. Rhinos lose out in firepower from S6, carry more dudes and offer protection... simples.

    Just depends what you want. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of the army, just offering an alternative. I just find 5 man squad too squishy...I recall someone else saying similar and strongly in recent weeks... ;)

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  13. They are squishy, which is why u need to maximise the firepower to reduce incoming squishyness lol.

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  14. Really does come down to preference - theres the option of *gasp* dropping a dread and 2xRazors down to rhinos - which would gain you 3xdudes in each rhino as your "lead" dudes - bit less squishy - supported by 4xrazors and 2xdreads.

    AssCans are nice - it certainly mixes with the theme, but S6 is no joke, and with psycannons and super autocannons there isn't the "biggest" need for more 24" shots to help demech - also dropping more troops in an already infantry light army. Though more "psycannons" is tempting, as I always had crappy lucky with S6 rending - literally that extra 1 was always elusive for me, it does make a difference (rolling a 6 vs a LR means at least your putting a result on it ...)

    I think its pretty simple - comes down to what your preference is - 36" range and then unloading or do you want to just plough forward for a turn or two and unload / pop out of the top. I personally don't like keeping my tanks still - so top hatching for me isn't preferable - though I do like the idea of 2x bigger squads - either at the cost of a dread or a razor.

    Its nice though that the arguments are more in whats more viable, rather than calling crowe poo. Refreshing!

    Personally I am going to test all 3 ideas (pure razors, rhinors or mix, and asscans).

    Whats great about the asscan one is that I actually have psycannon forgeworld guns.

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  15. I've been using a list like this myself but at 2,000 points and with double Interceptors to make it up.

    I've used Psybacks twice and I found they don't have enough punch (though the range was great) and I need to get out the transport to fire those storm bolters and psycannons putting my guys at risk. I've since been using Rhinos which have worked nicely as drive up midfield and pillbox. If the Rhinos gets a shaken or stunned result then fortitude and 9 times out of 10 that works so they are shooting again. Get weapon destroyed or immobilised I'm still shooting. Get wrecked or explodes I could take some damage or get pinned but could be in cover and, still shooting. The Rhinos really protect them from small arms fire unlike the Psyback which the Grey Knights need to get out.

    Hammers I didn't find impressive. If that Trygon comes at you it's probably going to be I5 thanks to furious charge and unless you've got halberds (which you have) then it will be going first, though you have limited attacks and need 4+ to hit and 6+ to wound before using the force weapons, which if that Trygon is synapse creature you're going to have issues. Anyway my point is by the time the hammer strikes against a Trygon for example the hammer will be dead as Trygon hits on a 3+ wounds on 2+ and has 7 attacks. Personally I'd rather take the additional halberd and kick ass seabass.

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  16. Hey Mercer, how have the interceptor squads been working out? I like their mobility.. what sort of squad size you been using, I was thinking they'd need to be 7/8 dudes as they have no transport to protect them?

    Pillbox rhinos are great, but so are extra shots the whole '1+1' thing... whatever floats boats as they are both viable...

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  17. I've been trying Interceptors in units of 5 each with psycannon, hammer and halberd just because I had some points. They come in useful for distraction units or zipping up a flank and blasting a camping unit i.e Devs, Long Fangs, Lootas or Preds etc. Also useful for last mintue objective taking. Mostly useful for distraction taking away fire power from the Rhinos as if the Interceptors aren't dealt with then it's hammer time next turn.

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