Wednesday, 19 January 2011

Bully’s Deathwing? 1750...thoughts

Bully emailed in asking for some thoughts on a 1750 Deathwing force.

I have my own Deathwing force from back in the day…well about 2 years ago, from when I just loved fielding an all terminator force…at the time, this was my only option… BUT, it will continue to gather dust on the shelves in the games room, I’m not jumping on the Deathwagon…

Bully is though… ;)

He emailed in with this:

“…Yo Ven, Bully here,
Really this is just thinking out loud, had a bit of feed back from a couple of people, but I have a fair thought of the way the list would play out. As I said I didn’t want to side track any posts, as a former gaming writer I know how sometimes it can get annoying even if it ups the comments (quality > quantity!).

Firstly I am making the 1750 list to potentially play Atreides thurs (if he doesn’t mind the redic amount of term w/out correct arms I have lol).
Basic thoughts are;
Belial - TH/SS
x5 Squads - all TH/SS w/ CML (and 1 Apoc for FNP)
x3 speeders w/ Typhoon / MM

This is just standard. Obviously there’s 26 immovable objects (near enough) that become unstoppable forces if they touch things.

Then x16 misile shots a turn at 8 targets potentially.
Though more than likely 3 squads will be reserved to allow for double deepstrike in T1. Then the final one will be the "flexible" squad, either backfield objective holder/rock or attempts to get into the fray/clean up/support/pen in "escaping" objects.

This all comes to roughly 1560 points.
There are multiple options I have here I feel:
1 - The first, which I quite like is the double dakka pred option - dead on 190. Obviously this can move forward and offer s7 6" etc.
2 - The second is a sort of "variation" of your dropcannon - which would be a dread w/ MM/Flamer - only problem is - no 1st turn drop, no guarantee of it getting in till T5  ..
3 - The third is a vet squad w/ x1 melta x3 combi melta in a drop - again same issue, but this requires more fire to get rid of (short of a template) than a "maybe a lucky potshot" on that dread.

I think if the drop pods were same as C:SM et al I'd rock those because you could use them to block fire lanes / pen people in to try and get that 2nd turn assault w/ the 2 rock units.

Alternatively, which requires a few more models (just bikes) bought, is to drop x1 speeder and rock a unit of bikes w/ MM attack bike - which is 190, then add in maybe a MM/HF speeder to a squadron. Scout --> teleport homer could be a nice trick.
@ 1500 I think I am looking @
x4 Squads - TH/SS/CML - FNP/Banner on 1
x3 Typhoon's/MM
Again this is 150 short, which "creates issues" - though I think I am happy enough to squadron up x2 of these typhoons w/ MM/HF speeders.

In either case, these lists make a break from my mech BA's which I still love to play anyway, but allows me to get in touch with my love of terminators (and a fall back if GK's absolute suck, which is my 2nd hobby love, I still have my original 20 year old GK's beside me here looking all eager to get on the battlefield lol).

I think I’d agree with you on the reserves stuff. With no reserves manipulation, no Drop Pod rules…I’d not bother with Podding anything in…

Lets keep it on the table.
For me, that also goes for your Troop squads too. I’d not DWA them, they can drop in and shoot, but shit…they don’t need the range…they may need the angle to take on heavy front armour vehicles, but generally they’ll be ok.

So I like the Dakka Pred option. Double dose.
Gets you two more targets to suppress with the 2 S7 shots and even better vs light vehicles (Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Speeders, Vypers and even useful vs Av11 APC’s)
Tough front armour means that they are on par with the general ‘tough’ feel to the rest of the army.
They have excellent range too, complimenting (or complimented) by the Deathwing CML range… fits very nicely. Good choice.

Other choices? Double dreads? Nope, forget the points juggling issue, they don’t offer the same dove-tailing with the rest of the force that the Preds do…unless we go Las/ML sniper Dread mode…which is really quite expensive. No Rifleman dread option as its only the Mortis dread for Dark Angels…in FWorld, not the codex…sucks ass.

Putting the Speeders into a squadron is not a great option, we know it decreases their survivability, we also know it would remove 2 targets per turn… this is not acceptable with our already limited threat vectors…I do like the Multimelta option on the speeders…it counters the very, very limited anti-heavy armour arsenal in this army.

You will struggle with high armour vehicles…even with AV12 spam…you have 66% chance to hit, 50% to glance or better… 2 shots…this is 66% chance of a glance vs AV12, or less than 50% to penetrate… No Logan Grimnar to make your missiles S9…

Clearly, math hammer is not to be relied on, or used solely as our guide, but it is relevant and it does give a good indicator of performance.

I say keep it with the Preds at 1750…knowing that you have some excellent firepower at range, and up close you have superb antitank… TH/SS…which we’ve not mentioned, but I think we are all cool with how it works!! Does give superb protection…. BUT…

And there is a but… I don’t care how mind-blowingly cool it is to have Deathwing back in the game properly …. They are still a very elite army, that can now compete with the current Mech/troop heavy (read: proper 5th ed army) forces…

Oh yeah, the but….they still die to a good amount of firepower… dakka dakka will kill them just as easily…how many 1’s can you NOT roll??

I think 5th ed codices do ‘elite’ better… the Sanguinary Guard army will shrug off all this firepower, then smash throw the armour and bonus FNP by swinging first…even against Belial…The Loganwing force will go toe to toe with the guys…after they have removed the support and Preds, then cut them down with powerweaponry and combi-melta fire…

On the other hand, all those anti tank shots will be largely wasted from the large number of Storm Shields….a Vendetta will only kill 0.6 of a terminator…2 Vendetta’s to kill ONE marine… no thanks… very survivable…

One last point? Where are the pissing LAND RAIDERS mother fucker!!! It’s Deathwing!!


  1. Cheers for the feedback ... even if I've decided against it myself today already.

    I did feel that the dakka preds were the best option, and surprised that no one else has even suggested them to my knowledge, I'll deem this list bullywing then.

    Tbh between the fact that I want to actually paint my GK's (and the scheme I have is too cool to deprive the world of them!) and having dropped a couple hundred on the BA jumper list, I really should ... you know .. stick to my projects lol.

    It was a nice thought though, and the temptation to get a army of terminators out on the field, v.tempting. I may still do it ... but just co-incide it with the construction of the GK's when they come out (which really is just a hobby thing primarily, low models, crazy paint scheme/conversions et al).

  2. Oh @ the Land Raider - the 3 on my shelf cried a little bit as I wrote the list.

    I could hear the machine spirit whisper "what? 25 assault terminators? NO landraiders? what?" as it sniffled into its martian tissues.

  3. lol. Fair enough...happy to provide the thoughts...what did you decide to go with instead for your game with Atreides?

    Get those GK's painted up...I think its fair to say they'll be better than pimped DW v1.5...

  4. The GK army may actually have models spanning 3 generations, all of which I've purchased new myself. Makes me feel old.

    For tomorrow I'll just be going with my normal mech (pred spaaaam) or a variation on your drop cannon (lib / x4 razors / x3 baals / x3 autolas / dropcannon) Been wanting to use it for a few weeks but not had the pod assembled - pulled my finger out last night (and even the doors close properly an everything!).

  5. I am just desperate to paint this;

    Also my honor guard/sang guard for jumper army crazyness;

    (I also just realised, I have way to many test models).

    Excuse crappy jobs on all of them, all 3 are just colour combo/application tests. But just makes me want to do the models now :/

  6. good to see some list advice on here.

    @ Bully, well if i beat you by turn 3 1/2 again we can have another game so bring your termies ;) lol

  7. Shut it you!

    But seriously, please dont roll that many 5's and 6's again in a game :(

    Are we going to for the sake of completion run Pitched/Double Objectives? Or leave it to the dice to decide?

  8. @Bully, love the Sang Guard test model, looks great...the GK's too, great colours... let us know how the test games go boys... Bully, let me know what you think of the dropcannon... Mince a pair of Hydras on the drop in side armour or if his chimera's are in a parking lot, drop beside them and send 2 S6 and 1 S5 into THREE tanks side armour...only if they are closly packed...shredding his bubblewrap (if any present) is not important to your BA... Or drop right in front of his lines to make him deal with you...just don't do it in front of his Meltavets...any other unit...yup do it.

    Andy...let us know how your test games are going...pop up some list thoughts...

  9. i will let you know when i have a better idea of whats the lists can really do. i dont parking lot any more unless appropriate. i learned that lesson very well against a deamons player with 9 flamers in 3 squads :P ouch.

    Bully, i'd love to do Pitched/Double.

  10. and those Hydra squadrons? nicely spaced I hope... although in spearhead...tough to

    yeah playing steve's demons very very quickly educated me when I began playing mech armies couple of years ago...

    Good luck boys have a good one.. couple of trial runs for my Mech BA tonight too...

  11. Stelek@YTTH has come up with a list (for 2k) which prob can be stream lined down to 1500 pretty easy (unlike my suggestion).

    Its interesting at the very least. I am still unsure over it all and cant say I am overly convinced myself, but its food for thought anyway.

    Still I am certainly endeared to my dropcannon now lol, even if I didnt use it optimally, but tbh I didn't expect to on the first drop/vs Andy.

  12. Played VERSUS a DW army today - and even as unoptimised as they were - man it was hard to shift.

    My pen dice rolling was a bit fail today again, and I failed 9 out of 9 4+ cover saves (urgh); but it did take a full 7 turns to take out 3 raiders and 14 of 16 terms. I could have done it a bit better certainly (2 mistakes on movement/priority) but they are damn hard to shift. Though I am sure next game a bit easier lol. That said - I'd be worried at 1750 about facing 26 3++ terms.