Saturday, 29 January 2011

Alternative Builds: ImmoBAlizer list/concepts/deployment

So in relation to getting my head out of my arse and playing Blood Angels in the manner in which they are designed…fast and close in the main… and STOP playing them like wannabe Imperial Guard… I present this…
My take on Immolator spam. When the codex dropped I hit this style of list using Death Company to spam out the ‘Backs, but of course they are not scoring and it was a ridiculous concept. Now though…when we finally stop trying to be IG…

This is not Witch Hunters/Sisters though…not the 9 immo’s and a 3-6 rhino’s with IST’s you’d see at 1500-2k… we just have 6/7 plus support at 1750…remember, this is for the X Legion Tournament in a few weeks.
For a true immo spam list, have a look over here at YTTH  or here at 3++.
In this version, I am attempting to achieve what I partially did with the IG: Mobility and Midfield article a while ago.
An army that is mobile.
And in your face.
There are several ways to do this with BA, but with mech…and despite being fast…we always are left with units that do not push into the midfield or further because we are holding a couple back to claim/secure objectives, or are only moving 6” to fire all weapons (my beloved AutoLas Preds I’m looking at you)…as a result, the good stuff that’s inside the transports – namely, melta weapons, are unused for quite a while…too late one may argue. 

So, if we force our own hand in getting the boys close… lets start with the list before moving on to concepts and deployment…

List 1:
Libbie – Fear, Shield, Hood, Force Weapon, Combi-Melta
Honour Guard – 2xMeltagun, Novitiate, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
RAS – Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
RAS – Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
RAS – Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
RAS – Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
RAS – Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback – TLHF, Dozer, HKM
Baal Predator – Flamestorm Cannon, HKM, Dozer
2 x Attack Bike - Multimelta
2 x Attack Bike - Multimelta
Vindicator – Demolisher Cannon, Siege Shield
Vindicator – Demolisher Cannon, Dozer blade

 List 2:
Changes the HG for a 6th RAS squad (identical to others), changes 1 squad of attack bikes to another Baal (exact copy), changes one Vindicator to 2 Riflemen Dreads for suppression fire… keep them in cover at the back and plink away, or advance slowly from cover to cover firing as we go. They can’t keep pace, but they don’t need to and the pressure put on the opponent from the main components of the list mean that they are less likely to be suppressed themselves…

-          39 Infantry wounds with FNP
-          9 vehicles, 3 @ Av13  
-          Rhino triangles – for melta deployment from transports and in order to give cover to the boys as they pop stuff.. to get a look at what we mean I have stolen the images fromKirby at 3++ (cheers oh Pink One!) 

That is how we rhino triangle for those that are not quite sure and that is the crux of this army’s anti tank, incredibly swift Melta delivery..
Think on it, 12” deployment or spearhead, with a 21” range (12 move + 2 get out+ 1 Base + 6 melta) to be in super melta range we can get first turn melta shots off…or even first turn regular melta…great against Eldar or Dark Eldar where Melta is pretty irrelevant…
-          Cover: This comes in two forms…smoke after an 18” first turn burn or even better, using a pair of Baals to pop in the scout phase and give cover to other vehicles and just generate cover saves off of each other.
The problem here is that you can cause yourself to get stuck. Check out what happens when you stack your vehicles just to get cover for the rest… YTTH is STILL my bible… and Kirbs of course...
-          Sanguine Shield – pops off in the enemy shooting phase, so we have great utility from the Libbie here… can jump out and Fear a disembarked enemy unit, with -2 Ld we can cause a lot of havoc with just average rolls of dice.. plus he has a melta shot…do we think an Inferno pistol is a better shout? Perhaps as it gives him an extra attack and can use it continuously throughout the game…we’ll look at that.
-          Bikes… there is definitely a place for attack bikes here. They will be out of LOS until they flick out down a flank or by the side of a Razor and smash something with MM fire. Even then they will most likely be in cover from retaliatory fire and with List 1 will have FNP too. Pretty good. Their ability to lash out and hit very hard into a high value target earns their place.. that and 36” range… Even on the charge vs smaller units that are inside any tank they explode (because mid game it all gets just that close)…they will do alright, keep them in concert with the Honour Guard and they’ll have Furious Charge and FNP and T5 still…huge difference maker versus IG Vets or 5 man Razorback Marines… NOT that I’m advocating assaulting with them, fuck no, but if it happens…well, its not that bad. Not slowed by terrain either, just take Dangerous tests, with 2 wounds…well ok that’s not an issue either really…

-          Always as far forward as possible! Lets examine:
-          Dawn of War – the usual issue is we are not on the table and therefore not in a good position, losing a round of shooting too as Night Fighting is generally in effect. For the ImmoBAlizer list (cos even with Dozers it’s what I know my dice will do to me!!) this is not an issue. We can roll on the table 18” putting the force almost half way and in position to get good melta shots for turn two…and with effective melta range comes TLHF goodness… for safety? We pop smoke of course, but get the added bonus of Night Fighting…shit…this army actually likes DoW deployment?
-          Spearhead – Central LOS blocking terrain? Great. Nuzzle up to it and prepare to drive 12” straight in and fire off the HKM salvo…or bomb 18”, pop smoke and be prepared to unleash Hell next turn. Other thoughts…if the enemy is mid-ranged in nature (SM, SW, IG Vets perhaps, Orks, Nids) then we can smash them turn one..or if going second, stay behind the central terrain piece and pop smoke on Baals on either flank to generate cover to any exposed vehicles..
-          Pitched Battle. Simples. 12” forward. In a line. Baals on either end can scout and smoke to generate cover for perhaps 4 other tanks using front armour , not sideways on to generate for more…that’ll have to do, because if they park in front of the others and get stunned or immobilised, then we have completely stalled our own advance and left ourselves open to a gigantic clusterfuck. And that’s not good. 


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  2. Didnt expect you to go this way ven lol.

    I've like the concept around "flamestorm" or "immospam" ba's for a while, the core of the force is very simple but the trick for me has been those FA/HS slots. Interestingly you've gone with the vindies, which I can see being pretty decent, as they could draw away fire from the weaker AV11 rolling forward.

    I had a list a while back I was working towards which @ 1500 was x5Flamerbacks, x3flamestorm x2autolas - but I think your variation w/ bikes is a better medium than the baals (asscan or flamestorm) - so much so I am not sure that single one needs to be there, except maybe for scouting / AV13 frontage.

    I personally am thinking that the riflemens might be better served in the list, they take a bit more to go down and provide good suppression fire, though not the same scary S10 template.

    On the dozers though, they are even more key in this list, as trying to wedge x6 chasis's through the middle of the table your more than likely going to run 1 or 2 - at least - through terrain, and thats a pretty good chance of it running itself into ground. Plus I always find I get the imob'd results at the most inoportune time (or Andy getting his T1 in his deployment, that always scares me). Having that re-roll I am starting to think is just 2 valuable. Plus the Forgeworld Dozers + Siege Shields look so damn good imo, which is always a bonus.

  3. this is sick. love the first list much more than the second. rifleman dreads are just going to dilute the 'in your face effect' while the vindicators contribute to the impossible target priotity choices for your opponant on turn 1.

    i honestly think this is one of the best BA lists i've ever seen because it completely plays to the strengths of the army without trying to make them a poor mans IG/SW.

  4. I'm glad you like it! I've just finished building it!! Turns out I had all the flamestorm cannons and heavy flamers I needed and have just magnetized all my Razorbacks between LasPlas/TLAssCannon and Heavy Flamers...

    Did have to build a couple from scratch, so out of 6 TLHF Backs, 3 are unique....thought you'd appreciate that point!! I'll put a quick guide up tomorrow..

    I prefer the first list too Andy, think it's so much better...but I fancy keeping the flame theme going a bit more and changing out one attack bike squad for another flame Baal.

    Anyone have thoughts on that?

  5. I think thats wise Ven - I think you need either 2/3 or none I think the single one doesnt quite fill a purpose - it doesnt quite cut it as a AV13 screen/distraction, or lend itself as enough of a threat w/ its AP3/S6 template. But again if its x2 then I think that opens the question of maybe TL AssCans - which to lead off Andys point - it creates a further targeting dilema as they might not be allowed to be left until they become a threat (as they become a threat in T1 rather than flamestorms T2+)

    That said I really like the bikes in the list and would almost be tempted w/ x3 squads of 2 - freeing up another 15 points - 3rd MG on the Honor guard?

    Ironically all this talk of immospam etc.. I dropped the dropcannon to test out a squad of allied celestines (though I didnt get a chance to get the game) as the points fit lol. I've wanted to do a immo/flamestorm list but I have found it hard to get a FA/HS that feels right. The vindies I think are the right way to go. I got a game on monday so I might run this (against semi footdar, could be interesting with all those templates lol).

  6. i was also going to suggest another 2 bikes but then i thought a bit more. this list has very little (read none) long range firepower. an alpha strike on it by meltabomb vets from an army like mine would be pretty damn crippling, and might mean it was stuck in its own deployment zone for the first and maybe second turn. the only way to reliably avoid that is with scouting baals to block scout movement. therefore i think it needs at least one, and actually only one. 2 are not really needed here.

  7. It definately needs one, I think 2 to hit either end of the line, pushing the 12" bubble of defence back so that the only available strike is against the Baals...not really worth it when the units doing it will die next turn...

  8. Fair point, can be used in various situations - ward of infiltrating scouts etc ... (for example stop wolf scouts trying to force a death or glory etc..)

  9. WScouts are largely irrelevant... certainly no Behind Enemy Lines operations for them, as to infiltrating, yes fair enough, so lets just do a drive by flame run and kill them, having the mobility to bypass any attempts at blocking progress upfield with them...

    2 Baals it is.. have them built anyway with interchangeable bits so... just need one Vindicator and this list is done... and a couple of dozer blades, but that is in hand ;)

  10. I was wondering today if I can adapt my list to incorperate some of your points, while still incorperating parts of the "shootyness" of my list.

    I'd just dropped the dropcannon in favour of a melta/suicide squad, however I'd actually, in a bout of nostaglia taken Celestines w/ a immolator allied - 150 point. Plus I'd already been rocking dozers on all my razors up till then.

    My thoughs its to switch up from the quad-lasplas to double asscan / double las plas. Switch 2 of the autolas for vindicators). I'll have something like 4 AV11 chasis's and x4 AV13 chasis's in the front field with x2 AV11 in the "back/rear" holding objectives/supporting fire. I lose out on the double melta of having infernus pistols, but still can get the prime melta triangle shots off w/ 3 or 4 squads deploying melta.

    But when I dont particularly want to get up close and personal (e.g vs term spam) I can sit back and plink away at 24" range w/ fast vehicles.

  11. Interesting, though triple Baals would feel the theme better. Also why has the Libby got a combi melta when he gets the extra attack from two c.c weapons?

  12. I like the concept, but I feel its "cleaning up" potential is dramatically low. For example, whats stopping large units of marines sitting in cover? In my oppinion you need something to clear up your opponent. You will be facing a lot of un usual lists at X legion (trust me i've been 3 times) and the norm tends to be things like horde orks, Daemons with fiends, Imperial guard foot lists etc etc. You might find yourself overwhelmed with bodies which you just cant clear with a tank shock/flame. Have you perhaps thought about investing Power weapons in those squads? Perhaps drop the Honor guard for some power weapons and a few priests with lightning claws? I think it would give you more of an option when your units are on foot. I also feel the Flamestorm Baal is an all or nothing approach. 2 is a good number, as is with most things, but more so this as its will move up, shoot, then die. Seen it happen 100's of times!

    Love the attack bikes, one of my fave units (even though I don't take them, never find points for them lol). I've learnt the hard way and now I take 2 furioso's in pods which Im testing out. Doing great for clearing up units left without a transport. Went through a unit of 30 orks the other day in 2 rounds of combat rofl! <3 Blood talons :D


  13. @Mercer...good point, the libby can rock an Inferno Pistol for the extra attack...

    @ Killswitch...really? you think I lack mopping up potential? Fast anti tank we agree is ok right?
    But then all those twin linked heavy flamers... remember with speed and application to one or two units at a time...with tank shock and rerolls to wound, 2 razors will easily kill the majority of an ork unit...

    Baals can reach the other side of the table turn 1 with scout, deployment and 12" move and template... therefore no worries bour camping long fangs...

    Horde Orks I cannot fucking wait to face.

    Threw down with a nasty mirror image of my Loganwing this weekend and even came out of that very chuffin well...despite going second!!

    I think perhaps its worth noting that I am running 2 Baals and maxed out troops at the minute in playtesting...

    I'm just not worried about 'freaky' demon builds... or foot IG or horde orks... or foot marines.. I'm surprised thats these armies are the ones people think this army would struggle against...

  14. I guess its a matter of play style. I like to smash things reliably. I find flamers having to move up to the opponent and killing a few orks then potentially losing a scoring unit quite a scary option. They way you say 2 razors, yes I agree, but if your in the midst of an ork unit, then your most likely in the midst of your opponents army, which isnt the best place to put 2 scoring units. Just my play style I guess xD Still solid and look forwards to seeing how you do :)

  15. Forget the way anybody plays any list... this list has no choice and no other purpose.

    It's singular goal IS to get in the midst of the enemy.

    The horde of orks takes up alot of space and cannot move that quickly, even with a Ghazzie Waaagh!, as a result, I can bring all my forces to bear on half the army at any one time, bringing overwhelming force to bear.

    Then we are free to disengage 12" and hit the other half.

    We simply ignore any stragglers. If there are a few guys left, we simply ignore them and move on, mainting the speed throughout the game, never static.

    Always use the 12" speed, why would you ever go slower? Hitting on 6's in combat? Too bad.

    Kill 1/3 of my vehicles per turn? Fine. I'll win in the end.

    Need to use cover and generate cover ourselves through smoke, shield, other hulls and of course, actual cover.

    Then ignore it as we smash through with Dozers.

    Those 3 large groups of infiltraing Genestealers you talk about? Fuck em. lol.

  16. just out of interest, what would you do if faced with going second vs a very shooty/alpha striking army? i dont mean for dawn of war either, thats a given, but for either of the other two deployments.

  17. Three tools:
    1) Reserve
    2) Cover
    3) Negation of suppression fire

    With spearhead, I'd be tempted to reserve, providing there was no manipulation at play.

    With PB - line up in a nice sraight line, use Baals to scout to stop the alpha stike and pop smoke to provide cover to selves, with Baals giving cover to at least a few others...

    I can reserve it too, using speed to get across the table.

    But at the end of the day, I can just try and survive it...cover, blocking terrain, smoke from scouts...

    used terrain and smoke to survive and come on full force vs a Loganwing force at the weekend with something like 28 krak missiles...with him going first.

    Using the 4 AV13 hulls as cover...alot of the suppresion fire from chimera's and autocannons is irrelevant, and if we can give cover to them...

    It's the hardest match up...a truly shooty army is just so hard if I'm going second with this force.. I'll be playtesting the shit out of it against just this kind of army.. I'll have a more definitive answers soon enough.

    Although shit, look at what happened vs Wookie last week and that was with tonnes of AV13 AND cover...just going second vs a shooty IG army...

  18. What do you think of this guys?

    Libbie Melta
    6 x RAS - Meltagun w TLHF Backs, HKM
    2 x Baal - Flamestorm HKM
    2 x MM Attack Bikes
    3 x Vindicators w Dozers

    8 Flamey tanks
    3 s10 large, fast templates
    5 AV13, 6 AV11...

  19. I quite like that list - I tried out vindies the other day - and while I felt they were quite literally either hit or miss (I SUCK with scatter though) the ammount of devastation they can rock is plain silly.

    Have you dropped the dozers on the flamerbacks?

    I am looking at running 1 of 2 lists now at 1750;

    HG - MGx2 LCx1 - AssCanback
    4 x RAS - MG - x2 AssCanback x2 LasPlas (x4 dozers)
    3 x Baal/Dozers (assCan)
    3 x AutoLas

    HG - MGx2 LCx1 - Rhino (or Flamerback)
    5 x RAS - MG - AssCan x3 LasPlas x2
    3 x Baal
    2 x AutoLas

    Gonna play test both if I can - I am quite liking the idea of leaving the libby in the rhino fearing when appropriate - he has a horrible tendancy of dieing to the most mundane of things recently (he trips over a rock and snaps his neck, or manages to bore himself to death while sucking in CC vs WS3 T3 people!)