Friday, 23 July 2010

Redesigned 'Nids: Comment Responses

BroLo suggested a few changes to this list I posted yesterday, I am loving the consistent and always useful comments that come in to my posts and I just want to say a really quick thank you to you guys – you know who you are!

Check out the comments and weigh in:

NOTE: I am questioning the choices, ultimately defending my own, but I am not being defensive. An important distinction I feel. As I said above, all suggestion from you boys are brilliant and respected. As Kirby said though “…Nids are hard to work @ 1500…”, so I want to get the best out of them. That is what this whole process is about…

BroLo’s comments italicised in red:
“…Hive Tyrant: Hive Commander, Twin-Linked Devourer - 210
Tyrant Guard - Lash-Whip/Bonesword - 80
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Hive Guard (2) - 100

Hive Guard (2) - 100

Termagant (10) - 50

Termagant (10) - 50
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 195
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 195
Trygon - Adrenal Glands - 210
Trygon - Adrenal Glands - 210


Same number of T6 Wounds, more options with deployment/reserves (hell, reserve it all against shooty lists), little less shootiness, but I think more unpredictable. If both Trygons and the Commander turn up on the same turn... Emprah help your opponent! A central castling from your opponent is predictable but if you know that, you can counter it…..”

“…I'd drop a trygon and make the HG 3x2. That gives you about 280 points. Enough for a Tyrant with HC, HVC and a guard. Same number of T6 wounds, more (only a little I know) ranged firepower and also the option of outflanking the Rant with reserve manipulation on the Trygons? Finding the points for a second unit of gants will be harder though…”

BroLo. Dude. You've made the Hive Commander balls up. I've seen alot of people do it in real life too.
Only a TROOPS unit can be outflanked using HC.
So your concept of unpredictability is mutated to unreliability. I think alot of the basis for the success of this revised list was based on the Hive Commander outflank Tyrant idea in symbiosis with the Trygon reserves fun.
Let me explain my thoughts…

The Tyrant now has to sit back with everything else, providing synapse in an area that does not need it (2 Tervies there already).... short range firepower that is not useful in addressing this list targeting weakness you highlighted...

Other changes:

- Offensive elements. Reduced through the change from 3 to 2 Trygons. All other elements are defensive choices. Bear in mind the relatively short range of the Hive Guard who are to control midfield and pop transports…this clearly is a defensive unit designed to respond not to alpha strike first turn. As a result, the overall army becomes a very defensive, ‘dug in’ kind of army – and very good at that, but only 2 Trygons bombing forward on their own. This very point was a principal part of the thought process in the original post.

- 2nd Termagants unit. Squeezed in. Tyrant can't have a HVC because of these guys. Otherwise I might be interested in him. With one termagant and 2 Tervigons, I'm still going to have 5 units of troops, even if I poop out straight away.

- Tervigon as 3rd troop. Awesome, scoring T6, love it. Already have one, a second is really good…but this does mean I have to pay for something else in HQ…

-Hive Commander - I'm clearly not going to be outflanking any of these troops. A tervigon you say? IF there is strong cover, blocking LOS and IF he comes in on the right side then maybe...cause he sure won't have termagants screening him for a full turn of shooting/assault as Tervie must spawn BEFORE moving...
SO I'm paying for the +1 to reserves which I must add.
Against all shooty armies this is great, against all Deep Strike armies this is great. Against all other armies with more traditional set ups and not army-raping-in-one-turn firepower...not useful. Why? Who would reserve normally? Trygons? With only 2 we need to keep them alive so reserve and Deep strike for rear armour vehicle shots yes?
No, as this leaves a highly reduced threat level on board. Less confusion about who the enemy needs to shoot. Those smaller Hive Guard units? Blown away? Want to have a real chance against one of the Tervigons (even in cover) before it spawns, go for it...with less targets on the board the dilution is not as complete and the job becomes easier for the opponent.

- Smaller Hive Guard units. This list still only has 3 targets at range, except now, they are statistically less likely to do stuff leaving the dice a little more control over fate (which we know is never a good thing- lets give the dice as little control as possible), also less likely to survive as long due to reduced numbers. On the plus side, units of 2 are easier to get into cover as only one model need be in.

- Reduced Trygons. Less survivable as they run up the board. Reserved then they get to try and pop rear armour with firing, but as I said earlier, if I am reserving them then I am reducing the threats on board, making threat assessment too easy for the opponent…

Hmmm…. Well. I think overall the suggested new list is good, but I rather strongly think it was hoping for something a little extra to make it very cool. Hive Commander I’m looking at you here.
An outflanking Tyrant with a short ranged TL S6 gun is very cool and highly useful, adding another target/tank to be taken down, plus if it showed up at the same time as the Trygons then as BroLo said - “…Emprah help your opponent! …”
Unfortunately, not to be.

I think I will probably maintain the existing list, I am just toying with options on excel now as I write and am struggling to incorporate the elements of BroLo’s suggestions I like, namely the second scoring Tervigon, the Tyrant w HVC (for a fourth target at range)…but still trying to build back up the Hive Guard and maintain 3 Trygons…can’t be done at 1500.

Bloody awkward Tyranids.

NOTE: Perhaps I should have adopted the snowmobiling method here….for the future.


  1. awww... not even snowmobiled for my troubles.

    Ooops, sorry about the outflank thing, I think it's just seeing Chumby outflank tervigons (which ARE troops duh!), made me think any ol' beasties could (reading the codex properly FTW). The other option would be to ditch the guard and go with a winged tyrant and deep-strike him, but you then lose some more T6 loving. You'd keep 3 units dropping on your opponents doorstep with reserve manipulation. You could, like you said also outflank a Tervigon if you can find cover for it. Pumping out gants the following turn can cause problems for you opponent.

    I'm sure you realise, the tervigon can only be the 3rd/4th troop choice ONLY if you take the 2nd squad of gants.

    Anyway, go with your list, it'll be interesting to see how well the Ld8 holds out and how well those beasts survive the slog across the battlefield.

  2. Yeah man, the 3rd Troop Tervie was your suggestion and I really want to incorporate it!

    Instinctual Behaviour is a bitch, but Trygons can still attack so meh. There is, as you state, the issue of leading the bull by the horns...

    The long slog across the field is another matter.
    T6, 18W and 3+ with FNP for 2 of them should keep one alive I think...Missiles still allow FNP for Trygons...Obviously other stuff doesn't but on the first turn, this is most likely what I'll be running against.

    I could reserve all of them for survivability, but I'd need the Tyrant.

    It is an awkward codex.

  3. How about going shooty and maxing the targets at range?
    Lose all 3 Trygons (which I feel is the magic number – any less and they are not survivable enough unless there are a great deal of other targets to dilute fire) and lose the second Tervigon, take on a Tyrant w HVC and HC, then change all Trygons to Fexes with some tasty firepower… such as;

    Tyrant HVC ,HC - 220
    Hive Guard x2 -100
    Hive Guard x2 - 100
    Hive Guard x2- 100
    Tervigon Catalyst,AG,TS -195
    Termagents 10 - 50
    Carnifex 2xTL Dev, Pod - Cluster Spines -240
    Carnifex 2xTL Dev, Pod - Cluster Spines -240
    Carnifex 2xTL Dev, Pod - Cluster Spines -240

    What we think? Fexes pod in on Turn 2 on a 3+ (that HC shenanigans people are craving)…7 ranged targets. The fexes on rear armour will murder tanks… plus in combination with one another are not hideous against normal units. Can’t take assault units though obviously in this set up…
    Could work?