Wednesday, 27 July 2011

MAWR COTEAZ SPAM! (Please sir, can I have some more?)

A little while back I wrote a 3 part series on the joys of Coteaz and what I called ‘The Core’.. This followed some reading over at Whiskey & 40k and an article by MVB (of NOVA fame) on the topic.

A very solid core can be built around:
4 x 3 man Acolyte, Razorback – Psybolts
3 x PsyflemenDreads
This only comes to 753 points, leaving just under 1000 points to with as you will.

Over the course of a number of playtest games and tweaks here and there, adding in my experiences against GK lists at the most recent tournament I attended, I have concluded that Purifiers are a part of this core too:
5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer – Razorback, Psybolts 199 points
Three of these and boom, we have some fantastic fire support and reasonable CC ability.

From articles like Killswitch’s yesterday we can see that a lot of guys are running very similar stuff when it comes to Coteaz spam, it tends to be personal choice only in the last 400 points.

Alex throws in Death Cults, small Strike Squads and add meltas to his Aco’s…

I love Terminators. I have been using a 5 man GKT squad with Halberds, Cannon and Psybolts.
I add a Ordo Malleus Inquisitor to this for an extra relentless Psycannon, ablative wounds and a Hammer.
Coteaz runs with these bitches too, and we have a very resilient unit, with 2, 3 wound characters with a 2+ save to eat as many wounds as possible.
The joy of Coteaz being in the squad is that he also brings a Hammer.
Combine the stacking Hammerhand from the GKT unit and from Coteaz himself and we get 2 measly humans up to a lovely S10 Hammer…6 – 8 S10 Hammer attacks per turn is pretty god damn great.

I have points spare then, so I throw in a 5th Acolyte squad in a Razor, this time with a 4th body – I know crazy! 4 men in a tank? How resilient is that, they’ll never kill all of those dudes………

My Coteaz spam then looks like this:

OMInq – TDA, 3 Skulls, Hammer, Psycannon
3 x 5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer – Razorback, Psybolts
5 x 3(1x4) Warrior Acolyte, Razorback – Psybolts
5 GKT Cannon, Halberds, Psybolts
3 x PsyflemenDreads

1750 on the nose.
8 Razors, 3 dreads
11 2+ wounds
I’ve played this list 8 times now over the past few days (God I love being a teacher…summer holidays are amazing) and can honestly say it is just brutal. Brutal. The shooting is horrific, the CC is actually pretty decent AFTER 2 or more rounds of shooting have happened..

So I thought I’d then apply my new favourite list building tool, Nikephoros’ 40K-Metrics.
Those of you not familiar with it, go check it out HERE.

Just as a quick summary:
The system looks at 4 different measures..
How many Marines can be killed from shooting per turn (DMS)
How many Marines can be killed from CC per turn (DMCC)
How many Rhinos can be killed per game (DRPG)
How many Land Raiders can be killed per game (DLRPG)
(There are several things to note with this system, a ‘kill’ on a vehicle is an uncovered penetration, and most importantly, this is only a tool to help identify weaknesses in a list when building a force and for examining over-reliance on any one unit or unit types to get the job done..And finally, everything is OPTIMUM, so a Psycannon is static, there is no cover etc)

So whats the skinny here for my Coteaz Core?

DMS: 21.73
DMCC: 21.68
DRPG: 78.42
DLRPG: 11.55

Impressive numbers, but how does this compare to say my Space Wolves that I took to Brighton Warlords Tournament the other week?
The numbers for Fafnir’s Bitches were:
DMS: 26.5
DMCC: 22.4
DRPG: 54.65
DLRPG: 11.9

DMS: Notable edge per turn for the Space Wolves, this difference is down to the Troop variations, the Coteaz troops (with the exception of the Termintors) do very little in the shooting phase, whereas Fafnir’s Grey Hunters rapid fire the shit out of marines.
DMCC: No real difference here, the sheer volume of Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard in the SW list compensating for the quality of bodies in the Purifier and Terminator units all armed with high initiative, Power Weapons.
DRPG: Wow. With 20 missiles and Living Lightning in the SW army we can kill alot of rhinos…But holy shit can the GK army kill Av11…78 Rhinos! Killer. I think I need this due to the number of mech DE, Marine, Guard and other coteaz lists in the tournament scene. When everyone shifts to all foot lists…maybe I’ll rethink.
DLRPG: Similar, despite the 5 double melta units in the SW army. With the GKs however, the army relies on Rending Psycannons. The number is worked out based on the MATH of rending, so it SHOULD work…as a failsafe, I have NOT included in this figure the 5 S10 Hammers I have access to in the force…just cause its hard to say when or if they’d be in assault with a LR, but we all know it happens..

Like all analytical numbers/results, we need to actually figure out what they mean…I think the figures demonstrate an ability to put real damage on the other army’s transport capabilities and that this ability is in fact spread throughout the GK army, not simply concentrated in one or two units. Whilst it can be argued that the Dreadnaughts and Purifiers/Termies do a lot of the work on this front, it can also not be ignored that the weight of medium strength fire available from 24 TL S6 shots will also do good work. In addition, whilst we state that the main work on the DRPG result is mainly focussed in the Heavy Support and Elites Section, plus one troop, it is very important to realise that this is internally spread across 7 different units.

Ultimately, when we consider the ability of the SW army to bring the pain in the shooting phase to transports, vehicles and bodies alike, we can see that the GK army has the same ability, but at a greater range (remembering the majority of anti infantry work in the SW army was done by Rapid Firing GH’s) therefore minimising the return fire in most cases.

Whilst the Wolves did have the ability to put down 124 marines per game (without considering VGL), the GK can do 108…I personally had a number of people shocked when they asked me how many marines I had in the SW army I took…70. At 1750. Do you know any marine armies that can boast 20 missiles and 70 bodies? Nope, me either, but that was at the sacrifice of vehicles, this GK army is the other way around, it could kill all marines from shooting, but it also really suffers from only having 15 marines and 11 TEQ wounds..the other 16 bodies are really just that…bodies.

Shit ones.

Ann Widdecombe bodies.

This is the weakness of the Core as I build it. I know, you know it.

But fuck you. Can you survive the torrent of fire to gun them down? I’ve played 8 games so far with this and nothing has yet. IG have done the best as the Av12 increment in armour really impacts the S6-7, but they still went down…very bloody though.
Pissing demo charges.


  1. that is actually a slightly more optimised version of my own list.

    having said that, in my one playtest of the list so far, the 10 man termies and dreadknight were quite honestly, awesome.

    i liked having the two las plas backs and the rhinos for the purifiers to shoot from in my list too.

  2. I prefer Alex's personally. You see a lot of dumb LR lists in tournaments and no melta is painful. Especially as you have no fast blocking units and 7 psycannons isn't that many.

  3. Venerable Brother27 July 2011 at 18:01

    @Atreides..Terminators are just awesome. How can you not love scoring terminators.. :)
    I've tried a 'Core' list with 2 Dreadnights and got it to work out ok, but they are definately for fun imho..
    I've not had any issues at all with having to get the Purifiers out to shoot...if you recall when Alex put up his all - Purifier list (the same one I posted 2 days ago...d'oh!) it was Razors...I thought a mix might've been better, to make sure all the boys aren't getting out and being charged or shot, but I'm totally sold on this method now...
    Las is nice, but typically, it's one shot...and well...I'm going to leave that there..they do do great work in later game for plasma death mind..

    @Bro Lo.
    Screw you too.
    Mine is better.
    It has hulking super soldiers in super-mega armour.
    The LR comment is true. THe last BWL, Blog Wars and almost every other tournament I've been too or read about is testament to that.

    It's 8 psycannons anyway...

    Now if only I knew how to do the stickie out tongue smilie...

    On a serious note. Screw LR's. I'll take the chance that I wont come up against one. If I do, I'l have to hope that the maths is right..I don't beleive in dice gods ;)

  4. Terminators that are going to F you in the face are more worrisome than some silver ones being troops. GKTs don't worry me all that much to be honest. If you want hard to kill units, go to ground with lots of cheap guys and shrouding, it'll be cheaper.

    Good luck with not coming up against a land raider.

    8 is shit too :P

  5. I really have liked the times I've used termi's - and with my GK list I really struggled to hurt Atreides terminators (but thats the way with terminators, what killed 5 of mine at brighton didn't even kill 1 of Atreides).

    Honestly I am not a fan of the naked aco's to just get a psyback - I feel they need some melta.

    One thing that's not been mentioned though that I really like here - the 3 skulls. While they aren't "huge" - its just another nice utlity for this list along with some of Coteaz's utility. Shame there isn't a warp quake in there and you'd have a lot of ways to mess with peoples "optional" deployments (reserves/outflanks/deepstrikes/infiltrates).

  6. Venerable Brother27 July 2011 at 18:33

    Agreed, there are 'real' Terminators out there...luckily they die to a torrent of fire just as well as my silver ones, dancing about in the moonlight without their storm shields..fools.

    Noooooo! the tongue smilie! you bastard. :P ...oh yeah, obvious.

    I'll just hope to rend with my 2.3 penetrations per turn, 1.15 after 4+ cover...35% chance to kill it...50% chance to immobilise or kill it... lol..

    I know its a crap plan, but I don't want melta acolytes, they are not quick enough to get there and stop it delivering a payload anyway.. it'll be half way across the board before melta aco's stop it anyway... then with a 16" charge range the contents can do that thing they do anyway... Assuming they've not been torrented..
    This way, I have the first turn to hit everything else and organise my positions to minimse its impact and hit back when it unloads...

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love fast moving melta...but it isn't happening so I'm not going to pretend it is..

  7. Venerable Brother27 July 2011 at 18:37

    @Bully, I did think of strike squads or interceptors but then I realised it'd be too similar too everything else out there..

    The skulls are great, just really help with protecting the parking lot from alpha striking vets or other scouts...

    Re naked Aco's...its 12 points to make a vehicle scoring...why wouldnt you? I have tended to leave them in reserve alot in C&C missions and walk the lot on, or I have been using them to line the back corner of the board to protect my objective from Wolf Scouts, pushing them out to the edges of my position, letting them kill stuff, then sweeping in with a counter attack unit, or more typically, just turning a few turrets around and gunning the buggers down...

  8. Yeah I think its more personal preference. Remember my troop of choice is a ~47 point 2+/3++ S8 hammer wielding maniac. Hard for me to get accustomed to T3 5+ pansies of pansyness. ;D

  9. Why wouldn't you? Cause they suck. One or 2 units, fine they sit around doing nothing at the back. Lots of them, also doing nothing? It just sucks. The difference in Mikes core is that his accolytes can do something with storm bolters (even then I think thats a waste of points).

    The accolytes give nothing to your army apart from a unit loitering in the backfield scoring. For each weapon destroyed/wrecked or explosion you get on those razors, the unit is completely nullified. 62pts is spent solely upon that Heavy bolter, which is fine if you take one or 2, but 4-6 of them? Hellll no.

    An yeah, my list rocks ;)

  10. Venerable Brother28 July 2011 at 08:23

    They are rubbish, I say as much.
    But they are good, not offensively, not even in game (directly), but for what they offer whilst building the army. Which means come game time, the WHOLE army performs exceptionally well.
    Because there is so much of it and almost all of it is throw away...

    Have you not found that your first 2 rounds of shooting with the Core lists just cripple the opponent?
    Fundamentally. So that he is in no real way likely to win?

    I have. With every list so far. Mech BA is up next as a test for them, all day today..Going to use Sharan Reddy's BA as an exemplar.

    I could of course change the OMInq, Termies and 2 WA Razors into 2 units of Strike Squads in Razors and a Death Cult unit in Razors...but then...its just too similar to yours!

    With the Coteaz lists there will always be overlap, as there are certain essential units, but I want some flavour, the Termies give me that..and you know what, I like the imagery of the little men scurrying around the battelfield whilst tanks, super soldiers and walking carcophogi do the work..

  11. sharans list isnt that great, i prefer razorangels

  12. Venerable Brother28 July 2011 at 08:47

    I've just looked at it again, seems weak in the troops...
    One big rock with meph as a distraction.. Not actualy alot of shooting... wouldnt be able to do enough damage to the ^list^ before it kills everything bar meph and LR...then its mop up..
    How did you find it when you played it?

  13. he just sat on his objective and even with hapf my army i still bassically won but due to the frag problem it was a draw. any other mission would have been easier. cyclone termies and even his th termies didnt do much bcus of all my p.weps. Meph isnt too difficult with force hammers, espesh whwn you charge him (I one). I woupd be more bervous to face flamerbacks etc.

  14. Venerable Brother28 July 2011 at 09:39

    I played Bringer last night who ran my ImmoBAlizer list.. 3 Vindicators w Siege Shields, 5 Flamerbacks w Melta and Inf Pistol on troops inside, 3 Baals w Flamestorm...all vehicles except Vindies w HKM for an initial volley...
    It was scary, he went first in DoW, C&C, flew onto the table opposite my objective and when I rolled on, I set up 2 layered walls of vehicles to slow him down.
    The Vindicators and HKM blew away the first layer of vehicles, then the Purifier Psycannons smashed the Baals, Riflemen shook 2 Vindies...

    Essentially, it got really bloody, very fast.

    Ended on 5, but was a draw, with GK's actually pushing on his objective. If it had carried on, definately a GK win.

    The list took the punishment from all that melta and I kept the highly flammable troops away from him, they were reserved and just walked on in layers on my objective.

    That was a scary game..but ended being pretty comfy.

    I was thinking something like this might be scarier;

    Libbie - Fear, Lance.
    Priest- naked
    2 x 5 Sternguard, 2 ML, Rhino
    4 x 5 RAS (2w FLamers), LasPlas Razors
    2 x 2 MM Attack Bikes
    2 x AutoLas Preds
    5 Devs, 4 ML

    What do you think as a challenge to the ^Coteaz spam.. ?

  15. 2x Libby w/fear & shield.
    2x Honor Guard w/ 2 melta, 2 plasma, 1 lightning claw. Rhino with dozers. 1 unit takes 15pt banner.
    4x Ass sq w/ Flamerbacks with dozers, melta, infernus & lightning claw.
    3x Auto/las preds.

    30 fnp troops, lots of melta, plasma and flamers. moves 18 first turn and pops smoke. Decent in combat as everything has at least 1 claw.

    I like ur list aswell, either one can take on coteaz lists.

  16. Venerable Brother28 July 2011 at 10:02

    I'll give both a go...

  17. Somebody has too much time on their hands...

    Devs > AutoLas - especially against GK and you have to plan for the worst.

  18. Ttue but i tend to see more auto las in bapanced lists. Dont want to build a list just for GKs.

  19. Venerable Brother28 July 2011 at 13:16

    @BroLo...Summer Hols...ahh the joy of being a teacher...

    OK, so both BA lists fluffed and died. But, Alex's was almost a draw, lost on turn 6. My shootier army held its own til late turn 4, when a couple of critical things died, fell back and the tide turned in 5/6.
    Both armies were tabled all bar a couple of weaponless, immobile vehicles.

    Held the Termies of the board vs the assaulty BA (list ^ in Killswitch's comments), they dropped in off a skull in turn 3 and just blazed shit, was great coming in later in the game as there was nowhere near enough left to stop them.
    I didn't miss them too much in the earlier stages either, although I took more casualties than normal due to the missing 8 psycannon shots and 8 S5 bolts. That'd normally buzz a vehicle/transport or critically damage littel MSU squad.

    Just can't shut the shooting down and the combat from Purifiers beats the BA shit hands down, especially after shooting..
    was using rhino triangles to protect from return assaults - textbook mnan..until the vehicles are killed.

    I'm not bored of it yet, 12 games in and goig strong. 2 draw, 10 wins.

    I think Dark Eldar might have a solid shot here, but if the Coteaz spam goes first...not happening..count on the Baron to go first, then no seizing from Coteaz double attempt...

  20. Are u playing urself? If so that doesnt count xD

  21. Venerable Brother's Brother28 July 2011 at 13:53

    xD ...Does too!

    It's ok, he's playing me...

  22. I remember the beginnings of SoS when you were playing BA against Tau.

    Killswitch is obviously an SoS n00b.

    You need to face an army that can drop the dreads quickly and only stay at range. Challenge yourself by always giving them first turn. They're the times when you will struggle.

    BA can make ranged only lists, wolves can do to. Tau and DE can also do the same.

    Killswitch - Tailoring is bad EXCEPT when you're testing out your list. I'd never tailor my list for a game or for a tournament, but it's good to know the limitations of what you're playing with. If you can beat a list tailored to beat you... then you're playing with the strong sauce.

  23. Well I got in another game with Crowe tonight, and it has prompted a thought for an article for me - Coteaz vs Crowe lists I am looking at.

    I do want to re-visit the blood angels I have to say, I have a ton of sprues sat there waiting for them to be made, so might have to rock them out, would be good models to test my air brush on.

    - bully

  24. Venerable Brother29 July 2011 at 08:53

    @BroLo...ah, you made me smile! lol those old vids are poor..innovative if you ask me, but poor.
    I do keep myself neutral, play both sides hard and as good as I can.
    I am happy to tailor lists to beat this.
    Think a mirror match might work!! lol.

    Bringer had an idea last night whilst we played Malifaux, something like:
    Xenos Inq, Rad, Psycho, PSword
    3 x Psyfle Ven Dreads,
    4 x WA in Pysbacks
    2 x 6 DCA in Chimera's
    3 x Psyfledreads

    Just try and gun down the other Coteaz list, completely tailored...but hey ho.

  25. 6 Psyfledreads isn't so great IMO. You can have too much poor AP firepower. There, I said it!

  26. Venerable Brother's left testicle29 July 2011 at 16:47

    Fair enough, I've not had time to test it today vs the other Coteaz spam..I'm trying to build an IG force to deal with it. Manticores and Medusa's should help...