Wednesday, 14 April 2010

Revised & Playtested List 1500

Morning all.

I spent from lunchtime yesterday to 10 O'Clock playtesting the actual crap out of this list.

Only versus a well-constructed Tau list did I lose alot of stuff...But I still won (yay me! I am king...ish). I'll try and get a BatRep up for the games, but my camera died and I barely got in 2 photos all day! (which sucks as it means I'll have to write up, rather than let the action speak for itself using in-game video)

1500 Spear of Sanguinius:

Mephiston - Bad ass, tactical usage; ram straight down the throat of the enemy.

RAS 1 - 5x Ass Marines; 1x Meltagun
Razorback - TLLC, HKM

RAS 2 - 5x Ass Marines; 1x Meltagun - Deploys within 6" of RAS 1 (now has FNP/FC)
Razorback - TLLC, HKM

RAS 3 - 5x Ass Marines; 1x Meltagun - Deploys within 6" of RAS 1 (now has FNP/FC)
Razorback - TLLC, HKM

Sanguinary Priest - Powersword, Blood Chalice - Rides with RAS 1

Baal Predator - AssCan, HKM, Searchlight
Baal Predator - AssCan, HKM, Searchlight
Baal Predator - Flamestorm Cannon, HKM, Searchlight

Predator - Autocannon, LasCannon Sponsons
Vindicator - Demolisher Cannon

Simple enough tactics.
First turn of shooting to be mine is important. If I win roll off then great, if its Drop Pods or reserves - pass first turn to them and stay in reserve, then use range and speed to counteract drip-by-drip effect of my own force coming in from reserve.

First round of fire (assuming all units deployed on board, which wherever possible I will) 5 (3xTL) Lascannon, 6 Missile, 2 Autocannon, 8 AssCannon, 1 S10 Ordnance to cripple important sections of the enemy armour or MC.

Yes, this is not a crazy 'Ard Boyz net list @ 2.5k with 36 S10 Ordnance shots per turn! I wish it was. Its 1500 and real.

I wish I could nuke the enemy armour by playing a well-constructed IG army, but I'm not.

Its not a 'leafblower'. Screw that.

I digress. The first round strike will deal with 7 discreet targets. As far as I am concerned, if I can stop return fire on the first turn, even if for 3/4 out of 7 its only for a turn...I am happy. Why? Because I'll do it again next time, albeit without the HKM's but then its a reduced number of targets...oh, and now turn 2...Mephiston is ripping plasteel apart with his bare, emo-vampire hands. Focus on him please.

From here, the game can progress in a number of ways.
My long range strike opened up some transports and its time for the flamestorm to get its shot off. I say shot, because so far, in all games played with, its died after scouting, HKM, 1x Flamestorm shot...its also time for the Baals to smash in any side armour they can and for the vindicator to start scaring the crap out of infantry.

My long range strike didn't kill as much as I'd like? oh, ok I'll fire again and again with the relative impunity of range.

Whats that? You've not killed Mephy yet? Rapid fire Plasma him for gods sake! That'll only take one round of fire to get rid of him...Ah, that was what the flamestorms one shot was...oh.

The troops exist to score, defend themselves and survive. And in my opinion are fast enough and durable enough to do so. Yes, I know there are only 15 men...we'll look at that now...

The list has a very limited amount of melta,and frankly that melta rides in a transport that is designed not to be in melta range! This is this army's first limitation.

Limits/Negatives (and tool-at-hand solutions maybe):

1) Melta. 3 x Meltaguns is not enough really if I face AV14 bunkers, all though vs Monolith it wouldn't help, Vindie or Mephy best bet. Vs Russes...move to the side, I have speed...but vs LR (and I faced 3 yesterday) there is not that much I can do. I have a good number of reliable Lascannons, I have a S10 fast Ordnance and I have Mephiston. In three games yesterday I had to use these tools to do the job. M did his well, Las only immobilised and blew off guns...but the point is it actually penetrated, and Demolisher managed to kill one, but I feel that was lucky. Additional tools are of course a pair of Tl-Rending AssCans, which through weight of fire are more likely to penetrate a LR than a Lascannon, something like 14.4% to 10.9% (actually this doesn't take into account the TL nature of the AssCans in this army, nor the 3xTL Las in the whilst accurate, each has a slightly (negligible) chance of penetrating on average due to higher likelihood of hitting in the first place)

2) Bodies: I lack numbers in a major way. I believe that the army has enough threats to keep focus away from the troops. However, in an objective game, the smart opponent will clearly focus fire on the troops and kill them. I believe this will not happen. By keeping the Razors at range they are protected from most fire. Except of course dedicated Anti Tank. If you use all of your fire up on a trio of Razors, who will be giving each other cover, or popped smoke whilst getting into cover (meaning that statistically you will use a far greater number of shots than Mathhammer would suggest), what are you firing at all the other AV13 tanks? Yes, they are Av11 on the side and I may present some sexy side armour on the Baals to further confuse regarding target priority/ grasping opportunity...but generally the strength of the Spear comes from the same strength as all mech armies...too many tanks, not enough guns.

The Sanguinary Priest is now in, despite my disgust at losing HB Sponsons to do so...From playtesting I have to concede that they don't shoot that much...but I fear I have lost a lot of dakka... anyway, the Razors operate together - strength in numbers, but also FNP to the guys inside. 5 men are now very durable. Check out this article from Stelek on the crucial nature of the Blood Chalice and how to fit it into your army.

3) Assault? This is a weakness for a Blood Angels army? Ummm...sorry but it is for me! My only threat in assault comes on 2 fronts. Mephiston. Plenty of threat. WS7, I7, S10, 6A on charge, rerolling hits, maybe even wounds if against an IC. Oh, they are all power weapons hits too. Yeah, he'll mess you up. Whatever you are. Yesterday he killed dreads with ease, tanks - but they don't fight back, GK Termies (this was my favourite as they are so expensive!)huge bubblewrap kroot squads through glorious combat resolution, Honour Guard, Chapter Master ( the last two in the same list, yeah I know, who does that?)...whatever, he's a beast, but he can't multicharge. He struggles to control when a combat will end, except by charging massive squads and hoping they don't run...He is not all that against an entire army.
My other assault threat comes through the combined efforts of 3x5man RAS and a SHP w PW. These are actually pretty deadly. The whole point of multiple small units, when it comes to offensive output anyway, is to ensure they operate in concert, together. 15 FC marines with 3 attacks each is quite good. Plus the 4 Power Weapon hits from the WS5 SHP. They will pop up most things that actually get close. 9/10 times the guys can jump out of their transports (or 1 or 2 units can if the transports are still alive) to support each other, fire off 3 melta shots and then dive in for the kill. Ork Boyz, Nids, Elite units all should feel threatened by this concerted effort.

So I have some counter charge (not in the in-game-mechanic sense, but in the very real, strategic sense) but no massive offensive assault.

Quite simply that is not the point of this army. Assault army is for another day..

4) Crowd Control - I am mainly looking at mech, elite, out there lists as the target for this army, I have some crowd control, but I have lost most of my dakka and flame templates by dropping sponsons on the baals...not sure what to do here actually and if I faced a Green tide ork list...i'd fucking fold. But with deff-rolla BW being the new black for orks (and its not really new I know, but you get me...) I feel that cool. IG blobs...I'll tank shock, flame, demolish...or actually assault with RAS and Meph in concert...different usage of the same units. Think this is called duality.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it was interesting reading my thoughts and ideas. If I have missed anything let me know, if I've come at something from the wrong angle...let me know.

Generally, let me know what you think!

Keep it real kids,



  1. Mephiston definitely has that omg must kill factor going for him.

    Since you're set up to pop transports quick, I think this'll work. HKMs aren't my first choice, but that's no bigs.

    Melta isn't that necessary if you can blow apart their support units, which they shouldn't have many of at 1500.

    I'd consider las/plas Razors, so you get 2 extra shots should you need them.

    Keep us updated.

  2. My thoughts...
    Mephiston is nasty, but the 3 times I've played him with my BT assault termies, he took down a total of 4 termies and a rhino. He died in all 3 games - to them. 875 points traded for 230 is not a good trade. And I didn't put them in there specifically for him, I run them in every list >1500 and my buddy is a genuinely good player. Nasty yes, precious? You'd be surprised.

    I think 3 baals is a bit much. That is a good number of points spent on very average fire. Yes they're fast and yes they have the potential to rend, but it's not something to rely on. I would personally also drop the vindi, but if you're keen for it a vindi with baals protecting side armour would be nice. But then you have the question of what to use to pop the transport and what to use to pop the troops? Rely on rending AssCan - not wise - or go with the template - bit of a waste as it would be far better aimed at the troops.

    This is where I think standard preds are much better. Tri-Las are expensive, AC/LC are a good investment. Pretty reliable for armour, MCs and pump-out the same number of shots as the Baal (okay okay, they're not twin-linked, but you get my point).

    I know you said about an intelligent opponent goes for your troops. I disagree, an intelligent opponent will go for the razorback with the SHP, take him down and let your troops take care of themselves. Guard for 1 should not struggle with that.

    I agree with Chumbalaya on the Las/Plas razors - the fast element means you'll be getting into double-tap range pretty quickly.

    The Single back-field pred seems a bit lonely :(