After a fairly successful run with the Wolves + Guard over the last 3-4 tournaments, I am looking to try out a new army. Now I was all about Chaos, but the codex, simply put, does not fulfil any of my high expectations.
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| Abbadon feeling much like many CSM players right now.. |
Now don’t get me wrong, there is some strong options and potential combinations within the book, however I am one of those players who does not like taking extreme lists without a measure of balance to take on all comers. Chaos is, unfortunately, not balanced. Their weakness? Shit troops..
I have tried time & time again to build a list with a strong push, solid fire support & still retain a strong scoring presence, but I am struggling. There is always a lack of mobility if I take too many troops, or a lack of scoring if I take too many hard hitters (which there are plenty of).
The Troops in 6th are the forefront of most codex’s, and to be honest, I hate the troops for Chaos.
The Marines are completely overcosted (two points less than a marine and loses ATSKNF & Combat Tactics, and two points less than a Grey Hunter who..well …I won’t go there).
Cultists? LD8 thanks to the champion, and do fuck all except hide. Seriously, they are dog shit. Guardsman are 1 point more but have the same LD, more weapon options, better armour & statline, potential to split or blob up, and can be joined by allied characters.
What is the point of this unit? Well like I said, they hide…that’s fucking it…
You can make them into zombies, and they gain Fearless, but now they are even more useless cause they can’t even hide…what..the..fuck! No going to ground makes them as good as dead. FNP? Who gives a shit, they suck.
I wont even bother going into the mark specific units, overcosted and do nothing which the rest of your army can do better. Noise marines comes close, but to get the most out of them your looking at spending a shit load of points.
No, the Chaos Codex for me is not shit, it’s just imbalanced. I hate not having reliable scoring, and since I am used to my scoring having to push for midfield, well good luck pushing squads of Chaos Marines near anything. Seriously, how are you going to stop those 18 wraiths, or those gargoyles with FNP after your T and STR has been reduced to two? Well Spawn and Havos surely? Oh wait, not I don’t have any fucking troops…
Basically, this rant is pure and utter hatred for the codex, but I do hope someone has fun with it!
Ok So What About The New Lists?
Now this post is getting on and I haven’t even gone into what I want to use next . Well after some consideration I am leaning towards Grey Knights, unless someone convinces me Blood Angels can work. But then again Dark Angels are just around the corner, so maybe I should just wait?
I’ve fiddled around with mysel...I mean...some list ideas, and this is what I am up with at the moment, thoughts & criticisms are taken into account, even if you’re horribly wrong.
Coteaz: 100pts
Inquisitor: 110pts
Psyker, Terminator Armour, Daemon Hammer & Psycannon.
10 Strike Marines: 290pts
Psybolt Ammo, 2 Psycannons & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 290pts
Psybolt Ammo, 2 Psycannons & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.
5 Strike Marines: 160pts
Psycannon & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.
5 Strike Marines: 160pts
Psycannon & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolt Ammo.
12 Accolytes: 135pts
Storm Bolters & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Searchlights & Psybolt Ammo.
12 Accolytes: 135pts
Storm Bolters & Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Searchlights & Psybolt Ammo.
Allied Imperial Guard
Lord Commisar: 70pts
Platoon Command: 30pts
Platoon Squad: 70pts
Power Axe & Krak Grenades.
Platoon Squad: 70pts
Power Axe & Krak Grenades.
Platoon Squad: 70pts
Power Axe & Krak Grenades.
Platoon Squad: 70pts
Power Axe & Krak Grenades.
Platoon Squad: 70pts
Power Axe & Krak Grenades.
Total: 1830pts
20 points to play with here, perhaps some Hammers in the Strike squads, or Dozers on the Razorbacks? Mass amount of shooting backed up with plenty of scoring bodies. I do like this list as I can potentially hold back and counter anything which gets within 24 inches, whilst pushing the blob to the centre. Perhaps push the entire army forward, concentrating it’s entire load (yes I meant that sexually) on focusing down targets within range. I would of preferred 40 Strikes, but 30 with support I feel is enough in this type of list.
Perhaps some Servo Skulls would be useful for Deep Strike Shenanigans?
Another list with some potential is this:
Coteaz: 100pts
Inquisitor: 119pts
Terminator Armour, Psycannon, Psyker & 3 Servo Skulls.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
Inquisitor: 119pts
Terminator Armour, Psycannon, Psyker & 3 Servo Skulls.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
10 Strike Marines: 240pts
2 Psycannons & Psybolt Ammo.
Librarian: 150pts
Level 2.
Corbulo: 105pts
20 Death Company: 415pts
Boltguns & 1 Power Axe.
Level 2.
Corbulo: 105pts
20 Death Company: 415pts
Boltguns & 1 Power Axe.
So I’ve gone for more of a foot horde with a lot of bodies, solid counters to almost anything & a large source of anti-infantry. Anti-tank is lacking, with only the Psycannons & Krak Grenades to be relied upon, but with so many MEQ’s pushing forward, I can’t see an issue getting close.
Death Company can potentially tank out there with Corbulo upfront taking the punishment like a boss!
No Anti Air?
As you can tell, I have forgone specific Anti-Air in both lists. Now this is something I have come to despise and enjoy with most of the lists I have used in tournaments. The most recent tournament I attended, I used a unit of 3 Hydra Platforms and they performed great. I would love to put them in my GK/IG list, but I also believe that in this type of list (in comparison to my Wolves/IG), it is not a necessity.
I have Twin-linked str 6 shots from the Razorbacks which can put some hurt on Necron fliers, and even snap firing 4 shots each from the Psycannons can do a number. It does detract my firepower elsewhere however, so I may need to playtest before finalising.
The main issue is the lack of points. 200 points is necessary for the Defence line and 3 Hydra turrets. Finding 200 points is fairly difficult, so perhaps it’s best to forgo and rely on the durability of 30 MEQ’s and 70 GEQ’s to do all the scoring.
Let’s hear your thoughts ladies, the floor is yours.
Killswitch
List 1 - IG allied.. Last 20 points, some of those should be for the PCS, give them an Autocannon so they can at least contribute something to the game other than just unlocking the Platoon..so to speak.
ReplyDeleteWith an AC, at least they can sit in the back corner or wherever there is a decent spot and just dakka away at stuff. With Orders they become OK at least and some fire may be thrown to them.. They are scoring too, so I guess they could be a back up to home objective camping..
More thoughts later x
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI disagree,
ReplyDeleteI think the book is very balanced, the fact that there is no one all-winning list shows that, maybe they are mediocre but they are balanced. Necrons are not balanced, when all you see is lists with 5-7 flyers.
Though I am no great supporter of the Chaos codex, it is better than the previous one. Ig are not balanced when for every 150 vendetas you see there will be one unit of rough riders.
The previous chaos codex was unbalanced, where every chaos army had lash and obliterators.
There is nothing that popps out from the chaos book like thunderwolfs did, paladins- riffle dreads, mephisto or flying croisants.
Maybe I am not as tournament-aware you are, but my plague marine list does quite well, and I think noice marines will do too, with feel no pain in5 and ignoring cover saves. Khorne berserkers also seem to have many bonuses if you can get them into combat.
True Toughness 6 bikes, cheaper raptors and bikes.
Some more thoughts on the chaos codex:
http://badabwarincambridge.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-two-missing-pages-from-chaos-codex.html
This is not what I've found at all. One overplayed list does not make a whole codex is imbalanced. Necrons are quite balanced although in general a alight bit too powerful in my opinion. Balanced to me meaning that you can find a use for most units in the dex and use them in different style lists. Noise blasters are like playing with squads full of heavy bolters, i.e. ok if you sit still, overpriced garbage if you move. The only reason noise marines are any good at all is playing them as stand ins for regular marines (18 pts for I5 with fearless and ccw. where fearless regular marines with a ccw cost 18ish and don't have I5). Khorne berserkers are pretty useless in this edition where shooting has been buffed and we still have no reliable delivery method for them. AP4 is kinda cool but its alot of points to dump on something that has about a 50% chance of being utterly useless. Plague marines are largely the same as before being slightly cc buffed and slightly more expensive (no I do not consider a discount champion a bonus mostly because of our shit challenge rules). But I absolutely hate the fact that if your dumping all those points into plague marines all your HQ options disappear. Its silly.
DeleteAlso the article you point to seems to have some wild points. "Most of the characters [were] lacking cool factor, but I think this is been amended in the new edition.They did fix all the characters,, they are useful, fun and competative." Sorry but most of the characters hardly changed at all and are still have exactly the same problems they had before.
Dude? THIS IS THE ARMY YOU WANTED ME TO PAINT?
ReplyDeleteI just did a count and that's 4 billion models!
Though on those lists I'd love to paint Coteaz + the Justicars, and then the preferably Corbulo + Libby! So my choice is the BA + GK army.
Very technical choice I know.
Well, I throw my vote to the GK and BA crazy power-armoured foot horde! That list looks mean! Granted, AT and AA is quite low, but unless you are facing 5th edition parking lot or Necron AirCav, I think this could hold it's own quite well.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could drop the one power axe and get some meltabombs to deal with AV14...
Now try it out and tell us if it works ;)
Yup, second this. Playtest!
DeleteYes Sir :P
DeleteIn my experience of using horde guard, I've found command squads with 4 flames to be great if you still have those 20 points spare? Why would people waste shooting that when they should be shooting your real threats, and then if they hopefully forgot they are there then lots of flamer goodness. It also allows them to march along/behind they blob squad
ReplyDeleteIf I had a Vendetta to transport them I would. The point of the Platoon Command is more to hide in the back and cower behind my rear objectives.
DeleteThey are also there to throw in a few first rank second rank fire, so perhaps it is not best to throw them upfront to flame stuff when really they are not there to do anything else but support with buffs & cower behind objectives.
Thank you for saying this. I could not agree more. I loved the last codex because of the strength of troops. Regular marines preformed well (they were cheaper) and there was no hq tax for cult marines which have gotten less useful (Salvo on noise blasters!? might as black that entry out). I totally agree that cultists are utter garbage, you said that perfectly. And to those who jump on lash+templates to say the last codex was unbalanced thats just plain rubbish too. One gimmicky list, although still a problem, is not enough to ruin a codex. The same applies to Necrons (cron air) and others. I rarely played with lash lists because it was dull and boring but there were many other more interesting routes that one could take and still do reasonably well.
ReplyDeleteThe new codex fixed many things such as removing lash (I could not care less about it) and bringing raptors into usable price range. But unfortunately it introduced more serious problems in the form of impotent troop choices and pigeonholed HQ's. The codex has many options in it but upon play testing I've found that many options are just for show and are utterly useless (lookin at you cultists).
The tax for cult Marines is ridiculous. There is no reason for it. Another thing is the bullshit fluff reasons for not being able to join marked units to other marked units. This means even people like Abbadon can’t join a unit of marked Chosen!!
DeleteThat is just absolutely stupid and ruins the codex’s flexibility. There is nothing over powered with have cult units have other marked characters attached, and it completely follows the fluff. There is nothing which stops Khorne lords leading the charge of Noise marines, perhaps they wont trust them (i.e. they don’t confer the lords LD) but hey ho, GW lack the ability to think straight when writing codex’s afterall.
Lash, well it was stupid when it first came out, but it became lacklustre later on. The chaos dex had little flexibility previously and there were only a few solid choices, which made it a fairly bad overall codex. However, as you say, the troops were fine and flexible. There was choice, and the cost was not too dire.
New Salvo rules are bullshit. The amount of players at tournament who have talked about the big blob of noise marines moving and firing 3 shots each, only for me to remind them of the also rule. It is completely stupid and for the points cost (20 points per model) what is wrong with having a 3 shot str 4 gun? It’s not the end of the world!! They don’t have access to prescience so it’s no where near the amount of firepower a Guard blob can push out.
Overall, as you state, they have brought the price cost down on units so they are useable, but the overall feel of the codex crumbles under it’s poor troops and silly restrictions.